ETHAN BAIRD: 

On today’s podcast, we have Petrumarié Jacobs, she is somebody who I used to work with ages ago in my previous history and radio, and now we’re going to be talking  about things social media and marketing.

So PT how’s it? 

 PETRUMARIÉ JACOBS: 

Ethan it has been great, it is great seeing you out here in the virtual spaces doing your  thing, but I have been good, I have been safe.

I have been sane for the most part of  it, so I am happy to be here. 

ETHAN BAIRD: 

Today we are going to be going to talk about a bunch of stuff relating to marketing, but  before we do that, let us just talk a little bit about you.

So tell us kind of, for somebody  does not know who you are, what is your background and what do you do currently? 

 PETRUMARIÉ JACOBS: 

I am  Petrumarié and I would always introduce myself, as I am helpful.

That is all I am. 

Nothing more to it, but that, that’s is all me.

Basically how it all started was I grew up  on a farm just outside Pretoria so; “Ek is van die plaas” – and as my bio says on all  my social platforms, I left the farm to chase the city lights.

That happened when I went  to varsity, at the University of Pretoria.

I did a stint there, I was a year in Mamelodi, moved to Hatfield, and then I joined TUKS FM.

That is where I fell in love with media  and went out of it got into the aviation space and then realised you know, I love data  analysis; I love everything that is happening in the news and being at the forefront of  anything crisis-related and then I joined a media-monitoring firm.

Then from there in  the media monitoring firm, there was a division that focused on social media  monitoring, so a little app.

We built it out in the last five years and I have been working  as the client and brand experience manager, for the social media monitoring system. 

So where it was always just a product is now a lone standing business and that has  been amazing to see. 

ETHAN BAIRD: 

What is media monitoring?

PETRUMARIÉ JACOBS: 

Media monitoring; well that is a good question. 

Look at it this way: It is you put in a keyword and you bring in everything surrounding  that keyword in different places.

So, it can be in print media, broadcast media, as well  as online and social.

We try to give a 360-degree view and what we do, but it is looking  at how your brand is being perceived in those channels and how are people  mentioning you?

Is it positive?

Is it negative and what are the different nuances and  metrics you can get from it?

So it gives brands an idea of where they came from and  where they are going towards. 

ETHAN BAIRD: 

So I’m assuming this is more for a bigger more established brand who has a lot of  traction online? I

s that kind of what I’m understanding of what this is it’s not necessarily  for like a small business might be out of their scope? 

 PETRUMARIÉ JACOBS: 

No, it can actually be for every business it could be for every business.

So how it works  with me I have clients that maybe get one mention, or three mentions a week or one  mention a month, or three mentions a month.

It does not really matter.

Then I have clients getting 20,000 mentions a day, so it varies.

But the essential thing of it all and  monitoring how your brand is being perceived and what the data says about it; essentially informs a small business to say, you know, “This is what people are asking  in my industry, not necessarily about me, but this is what they’re asking about my  competitors, or the industry as a whole and this is how I can answer to that need or  the pain points that I find in that space.”

So you don’t necessarily have to be big with  20,000 followers or have mentions about your brand every day.

You can be small and  just see how you can fill a need, based with data and information that you have  available.

So not necessarily small or big.

It is not just for big brands.

It is for any  person on the street.

 

ETHAN BAIRD: 

So this links to a discussion I want to have around customer avatars and the target market.

As a small business, we have been like slowly but surely figuring out whom we want to serve, whom we have served and what is the ideal client for us as a content  production company.

Can you talk a little bit about how media monitoring and the work  that you do, how does that inform creating and refining your customer avatar? 

 PETRUMARIÉ JACOBS: 

Perfect so, of course, I come from a sales background, I come from a marketing  background, come from a media background.

So for me, I would always say, “Oh ja,  let’s assume I want to market to these people and whatever.”

The biggest lesson I  have learned over the years is do not assume, don’t make an assumption about things  – use data.

And what I mean with using data like if in your shoes, for example, is look  back at the tools you already have available to you.

So, for some people, it might be  Google Analytics, where you can look at historic data of who is actually visiting your  website.

You know what are the demographics, age, gender, location, that type of  thing, but also your social media channels.

Who are the people actually following you? 

Is it just your friends that you just punch your page to your friends, and they are  following you, and you are talking to them?

Or do you have something specific in mind?  Because remember, a customer avatar is potentially that audience that you want to  reach. You know the person that you want to go out to, not necessarily people you  already have, but it is important to understand the people that are already clicking on  your links and visiting your website. So from there, you can use the tools that you  already have available.

So, if you have Google Analytics, your own social media  platforms, where you can check that out.

But then, have a look at what are people  asking about your industry.

So what industry are you in?

So from there, you can use  platforms like Answer the Public; you can use Reddit and you can use Kora if you like  those platforms. 

I know it sounds very like old and “Goodness why must I go into those spaces?”

But  when you type in what you are offering is, let’s say shoes, jogging shoes, for example. 

You pop it into those systems and it will show you what has been searched around it. 

And what happens with that is that you can see exactly what are people saying.

So you want to engage with an audience that is already talking about your product or  your service and you want to see what are the pain points and what the questions are  they are asking.

You can use those keywords that they are using around your brand  for your SEO strategy.

You can use it to write content about your brand and what it is  that you offer.

And then from there, you can also have an idea of how can I be of help  – like how can I help you?

What is it that you want?

What is a problem for you?

And  this is how I come in to solve your problem.

Because in business, you are solving  problems and you have to make sales because if there is not a sale you can’t pay the person who has been the creator for your brand at the end of the day.

So from a sales  perspective try just as you would sell to a person why they should be choosing you/why  should they have a meeting with you, your social media and all of the content that your put out there for your customer avatar potentially and that you want to reach, it adds  to it – It’s an extension of it.

Because your social media is just a touch point of bringing  people in.

So never assume, have the facts and invest, invest your time.

Be consistent  in what you push out to attract that potential audience because the work you do on the  ground must also be the work you do on your social platforms as well. 

ETHAN BAIRD: 

Talking about speaking to your audience, something that we have noticed, especially  with small businesses, but actually, all kinds of businesses, is that when we speak to  our clients and they want us to do content or marketing for them – what they want us  to do is do adverts constantly.

You know speak to them: “What kind of content do you  want?”

“Okay, here are our specials; here are our services; here are our products.” 

And the reality is that that kind of selling, just puts people off right, if you are getting  hard sold at constantly people just switch off and stop trying to engage, and it’s more  about being of service making people understand that you know what you are talking  about.

Speaking to them in their spaces, giving them freely the information and value. 

So that when they are ready to buy your services, you have already created that  relationship. Right?

 PETRUMARIÉ JACOBS: 

Exactly, and I know if you get asked to push ads the whole time, you have targets to  meet.

So at the end of the day, you are meeting your target instead of focusing on. 

There is so many rules and so many experts and people saying, oh do this, do this, try that.

But what works for you?

Have you observed who is actually using your  product?

Who are the people that is actually in your store; who are the people that are  actually asking questions.

And that’s why I say “Answer the Public” is a great space  because you can see online people what are people asking about the brand and then  you target it, but with ads it does get overwhelming. Therefore, you must look at your  content, is your content educating people? 

If you go on TikTok now and someone shows you how to do this chuckles from  Woolworths, how to eat the caramel chuckles they have launched.

You are going to  go, “Wow, I need to try that.”

And this cake that they had for a moment the chuckles  cake where you can hit it and do all the things, that was educational.

So, that drove  more traffic than any ad they have been placing, for example on Instagram, about it. 

So it was literally people educating other people and on their platforms about it.

So, it  is nice to do ads, but also organically. 

Is your staff posting, or do you have an employee advocacy about what you are doing?

You do not necessarily have to deal with influencers that charge 30k a post, you know,  who are the people in your environment that are actually talking about you and using  your products, get them to do something.

So I would always say start with being educational, have an educational aspect, teaching people what it is that your product  does, or what makes it cool because your product or service is solving a problem and  might be difficult for certain industries.

If you take the time to sit back and look at what  content it is.

Unfortunately, you do have to post an ad if you want to reach different  people because no one will find you unless someone shares content or talks about  you.

But at the end of the day, word of mouth is fantastic and ads it is a difficult space  because it’s such a risk.

You are posting all these different ads for a specific amount  of money and you are not getting that sell back from it.

ETHAN BAIRD: 

Yeah and especially in our experience, to actually do an ad strategy really well, you  have to invest money and you have to get an expert that actually really knows what  they are doing.

Because if you are fumbling around on Facebook ads, trying to cobble something together from like two YouTube videos, honestly, you are not really going  to get the results but you don not really know what it is that you’re doing and then you  are spending a couple 1000 Rands on these ads that may or may not actually do  something.

I mean, ultimately all marketing is about talking to people, right like that’s really what it boils down to, at the end of the day. 

 PETRUMARIÉ JACOBS: 

People buy people at the end of the day, you are 100% on that. 

ETHAN BAIRD: 

It is why people hire their friends in companies, right or hire people that they know; like  you might hire somebody for a task because you know them even though there is  theoretically a quote-unquote better person, more qualified person who could do this  for the exact same price, right? It’s about trust.

It is the same reason why word of  mouth is still so strong. For instance, if I ask a friend, “Hey, I want to buy a new  computer.

What do you recommend?”

Then they send me a link, I might just buy that  exact computer because I trust the person. 

 PETRUMARIÉ JACOBS: 

100% – And that is why Tik Tok is so brilliant for eCommerce on that platform because  it is ‘word of mouth’ with a visual accompanied visual.

I’m not saying everyone should  be on Tik Tok and be doing this.

I mean your businesses are different and it works  differently across the board.

The best advice I ever got is if you do not use your product  or you cannot afford your product, you cannot sell your product.

So, you know, if you  do a quote for example if you in the service industry and you do a quote and so oh this  is so expensive – is it expensive to you because you’re thinking about your salary and  what you can afford and if something like 30,000 is a lot for you, like okay goodness, I think I should give the customer discount before I even negotiate on price.”

That is  the wrong attitude to have, you have to go and say, they can afford this. 

This is why I am marketing to you.

But if you don’t use the product and you can’t afford  it, you can’t sell it and you won’t be able to communicate that value or deliver that  experience to a person, that is change for, you know small change for them – that R2  they have in their pocket but it is for you, it might be your entire salary at the end of  the day.

So, if you are in that space and you want to look at it, especially when you  work for luxury brands, for example, it might be expensive for you but if you understand  it and have that experience, it will help you sell it.

When I used to work in airlines, we  used to have experience days on the aeroplanes.

You had to experience business  class, you had to experience economy, Premium Economy and all of those to have  been able to create content and to craft an ad that would speak to that person that can  actually give 25k out for Premium Economy instead of 12k, you know.

Or for business  class 35k.

Ya, because you had to communicate with the experience you had and you  have to be used to it, you know.

So, ja give people who is selling your brand  experience, because that also adds to it. 

ETHAN BAIRD: 

It’s interesting, because it is actually, a thing I’ve been thinking about a lot – to project  my own money issues onto clients, it’s tough, it really is tough, because I know what  my time is worth.

I know that realistically, if you need, like say, for example, one of the  products that we are offering is like a complete content production campaign.

We  produce, like a bunch of videos, a bunch of blogs like all the things you need for content  marketing campaign, that is the equivalent of hiring like two or three staff members to  do that, right.

But, then when you send out a quote, that’s a couple dozen 1000 rand you know, it feels like, “Oh gosh, what are they going to say about this?”

But if you are  speaking to the right customer, and this is something we are trying to get towards, but  if you are speaking to the right customer and you know that this is the kind of company or person that would buy something like this, they live it in a different world to you in  terms of what they think about money.

 PETRUMARIÉ JACOBS: 

For sure, remember they have budgets that sometimes not their own and I can tell you  one thing, from all my experience people will give out more money for the creative  output than they give out money for analytics at the end of the day.

So, that was a big lesson, because you know I am in the analytics space so I am like selling why analytics  are so important.

And they are like, No, my agency did this creative thing and I thought  it was brilliant.

You go, the analytics are different and you have to verify it, for them it  is important, so people will spend money on what is important, for you it might feel like  a lot of money but if you show the effort, you will get that return, but phrase that I have  learnt, especially in sales, I never thought I would be able to sell or work with people but at the end of the day, it is relationship building.

You have to see it as relationship  building with your client.

You are starting with a phone call or if you did it through a  lead generation system or all of that; it starts with an email, it starts with “Hello.” 

Basically, and then, from that initial hello you can be dropped in the first sentences or  it can go into a meeting or it goes somewhere, but it is relationship building at every  point and then when it comes to pricing, there is always this phrase where I would say,  “I was wondering if you could help me, you know I have been working on this, this is the price.

It’s coming to this amount, would this fit in your  budget?

Does it make sense to you to put that amount to it?” and they would say, “I did not think it would be that much.”

Or “My budget I have in mind is maybe here, can  you help me work it?”

But the most important part is: I was wondering, can you help  me?

Because people will always help you.

That is why I say I am helpful, I will always  help you, except if you want to sell drugs, but at the end of the day it is about being  helpful, and feeling that you are taking care of the person in that relationship-building  process.

But also in your initial meetings have the question “How much are you willing  to spend?

How much is this worth to you?”

“What do you think the return of this type  of element be to your business?” 

And people are very open to discuss it because you know everyone runs off and says,  “Let me quote you, and if you take this quote by next week Friday I will give you 30%  off and it is stuck for a year or two years.”

You know you get this.

That means you are  leading by price and you are not leading by your solution at the end of the day.

And that is what you are trying to do, you are offering a solution to their marketing needs, ya.

ETHAN BAIRD: 

That is honestly a super point.

What I have been trying to do personally is trying to  negotiate not on price but on deliverables.

So say for example I quote R10 000 for this  project and their budget is R7 000.

Now instead of me saying, “Okay, cool, I could just  take 30% off.”

I would like to value my time and say, “Okay, maybe we cut back on  this deliverable and on this deliverable we scale it back slightly to get it down to R7  000.”

So my time is valued.

Especially when I was straight out of varsity, I would make  my price as low as possible, I would do anything for anybody and it did not really get  anywhere honestly and, just a funny story.

I had recently when I was sitting in a meeting with a consultant for a client.

So, the client had hired this consultant and they  were helping us make recommendations for the client.

Now, I charged the client  reasonably low because it was consistent work for my freelance.

But, we had already made all of these recommendations, me and my colleague, we had made all these  recommendations last year already.

We need to buy a better camera, we need X Y  & Z in order to improve the quality of your thing.

Then they hired a consultant at a  really high rate, who then told them the exact same, but now because the consultant  is charging them thousands of dollars, for this, they are taking it seriously.

Whereas,  because I was charging them hundreds of dollars, I was taken less seriously.

I might  actually have to cut this out of the podcast. 

PETRUMARIÉ JACOBS: 

No, no, no, you can have it in.

Because you know why that is such a brilliant story? 

We’ve all been there, we’ve all been there.

When I first started, you know, going and  selling off this product of like we were the cheapest, we were always considered the  cheapest and had a lot of people saying, “’But, why are you so cheap?”

And over the  years, now it is a few years down the line, now I can a price.

Because I am charging  online items, of course, but I know that what I am giving is of value.

And, that’s why consultants; so in the news, we have all heard of these consulting firms that are  currently being cracked down due to Gupta links, and all of that. So, ja it’s exactly that. 

It is you walk in, you look the part, you are talking the talk and you are like, “Sharp,  R500 000 for this session.”

And now so what are you going to do?

You’re going, “Joh,  this person they are selling themselves, they must have, you know, they must it.”

So,  what do you do? They sold trust based on human psychology because we work, you know, our minds work brilliantly.

So if someone looks a specific way, dresses a specific way, there’s specific colours  that they are doing, their body language is carrying them in a specific way – that’s what  you are going to buy without thinking about what it is that you actually have.

So you will find clients, especially in a corporate space and agencies even, that have  multiple suppliers doing the exact same thing, but because one looks different or sells  them self, you know they have a hook, they will definitely make use of and never let  go of the one.

They will easily drop you and say, “Oh no, it’s too cheap anyway.

We’ll  rather spend all this money on this project and we know it is going to get done.”

So that’s a very important thing to do is, communicate value and say why you are doing  it at that and why is it, is it because you are a South African-based company, that’s  why you can because you do not outsource anything and you do us yourself that’s why you might be cheaper than the competitor.

But the consultant, there is a lot of  glamour about being a consultant, nothing against consultants I think they do a brilliant  job, you know.

I’ve been in those situations as well, they do really great work, but they  are taught how to do it differently and that’s why you have to make sure that if you  have a team of people, is that the person you put in front or the person that is the face  of your business is that they carry them self in that way. 

But that comes back to your brand experience and how it is your company culture, but  also the clients that you are approaching.

Do you have shared values and are you just  another supplier or are you a partner for them?

It’s a difficult space because I know  you want to sell stuff yourself.

But sometimes you do need a person that can maybe  even if you sit with a consultant saying the exact same thing, to carry that out for you because people will go to the relationships they trust, which brings us back to that  friends hiring friends type of thing, people hiring people, people buying people – because it might be relationships that have come over time – are very convincing  people that can some it up. 

ETHAN BAIRD: 

Yeah, because I mean, people buy with their emotions and them justify with logic after  the fact.

PETRUMARIÉ JACOBS: 

Yes, I have not heard that in the longest time and I kind of forgot about it.

It is so true you’re right. But it’s nothing, how can I say, as long as you do an honest job.

You do an honest job and you can close your eyes at night and sleep well, if you do get sleep – they say sleep is for the wicked lately, but if you know you did an honest job, the  world is not always fair, but if you wait a while, you know, and you play the long game  with a person staying in touch, staying in touch.

When that person that they paid twice  as much for fails they know where to come to. I have seen it when I cry at night, because you take your failures personal.

You go “Oh, I’ve failed. I’m the worst person.

I can’t do a sales.”

But then you realise, remove yourself from the business and it’s not  you.

It is the product maybe, but it’s not always the product, but the product is an all star and it will save you or is something someone will fall back on because they will remember you.

So if someone else fails or closes down, it gives you an opportunity to  get in there.

But play the long game; just like an investment play the long game, stay  in touch, be consistent and you’ll see that business coming back to you, especially in  those type of situations. 

ETHAN BAIRD: 

Awesome. Okay, this has been a great tangent.

I had some questions prepared, but  we’ve already run through quite a bit of our time.

But one thing we did wanna discuss  is relationship management.

So this is a topic you suggested we talk about and I’d  love to just dive into it.

So let’s discuss relationship management between a brand and  their suppliers. 

 PETRUMARIÉ JACOBS: 

Okay relationship management between a brand and suppliers: so when you on board  or outsource anything, you know, if you outsouring creative or you outsourcing ads or you outsourcing SEO or you, you’re outsourcing your analytics.

It’s important to  have someone prove to you why you should take them on.

If there’s no track record if  there’s no, you know, solid thing that they can show you that works, you must go, it’s a bit dodgy, what were their results?

What were the things why did you choose them?

But when you manage that relationship and you on board the people, eventually, it’s important to treat them as partners. 

It’s just not great if you get treated like a supplier to say “I only need you when I need  this” or “I only want you if I need this output.”

It has to be a relationship, you checking  in, even if it is the supplier doing the work on it because, I mean, you want to keep the  business, so you of course, you are going to do the work that it does in order to keep  a friend.

But also make sure that each interaction you have is educational.

That if you  spoke to your client that “Joh, I actually just learned a lot” and then they will go, “Hey listen, I was wondering if I could ask you about this?”

And then you like “Aha! I’m being  trusted with some information.”

But a lot of corporates, you know, and also brands or  whatever you wanna call it, let’s say companies, your services may be 0.25% of their  entire job for the day or for the month or for the year.

So they might not give you that  attention that you need, you know, to understand – Okay, this is why you need to keep  me on as a supplier.

So you have to understand that they have a busy day, they have  a busy schedule and you the last thing on their mind for the stuff they need to deliver  on.

So when you are building that relationship, as in you are the brand, just give some  time, like have once a month some time for your suppliers.

But do not just treat them  as a supplier, have a partnership.

Because at the end of the day it is a win-win  situation. No one is there oust you, no one is there to, you know, get you out of the  business or tell you bad at your job, it is there to achieve the same goal and if you  communicate your goals from the beginning saying, “This is my goals and my deliverables that I need to deliver on a month, how do you help me?”

Then of course  people will see value.

And be quick, be efficient.

I know that is something that I hear  lately everyone just saying.

I have been hired to make this efficient or have our  campaigns be efficient.

But what is it, what does efficiency mean to you and if you as  a supplier understand what that efficiency means to a client, because they probably  have a performance appraisal that they have to account on that deliverable.

So then  you know how you can help people but ja, treat them as partners and not just someone  you call when you ‘dying’.

ETHAN BAIRD: 

Yeah, I think to summarise the entire discussion, it really is all about communication right, everything that we do, marketing all the different channels within all the different  people that you are talking to.

It’s about like communicating and being like actual  human being to other people, and not just seeing everybody as commodities. 

PETRUMARIÉ JACOBS: 

Exactly, and being helpful, delivering something that’s useful and being helpful.

So if  you’ve those two things together, I think you great success. 

ETHAN BAIRD: 

Awesome.  Petrumarié, thank you so much for the discussion today.

This was super  awesome.

How can people find you, should people find you, how do we do that? 

 PETRUMARIÉ JACOBS: 

Please do not find me – no, I am just kidding. 

You can come reach out to me on LinkedIn, it’s  Petrumarié Jacobs on Twitter it is  just  Petrumarié om TikTok.

I ja, a lot of the stuff, if you wanna see what I get up to and see where I really work and do all the things, you can go reach me there.

But LinkedIn, Twitter and all of those things.

So social media especially and then from there we can always take it to emails if you keen. 

ETHAN BAIRD: 

Perfect and I will put all your links to your LinkedIn and everything in the episode  description. 

 PETRUMARIÉ JACOBS: 

You are amazing, thank you so much Ethan this was amazing.

Thank you so much  Ethan, this was great.