[00:00:00] Hendrik Baird: So I’ve been, why do I start every sentence with so? I’ve been going to the gym recently, and honestly, I don’t mind leg day at the gym. It’s just the two days after that I can’t stand.

Every podcaster has a unique path that they take to shape their shows.

[00:00:35] Ethan Baird: I thought you’re doing a vocal warm up. Every podcaster has

[00:00:38] Hendrik Baird: I’m reading from the script badly. But it’s true. We all have our own unique way of getting into podcasting. When I started out my first podcast, it was about something I was very passionate about which was hypnosis. I hadn’t done it for a while, been out of practice, and I thought, let me learn how other people are doing it, and I can learn from their experiences. And that led me on this unique journey, and look where we are today. Sitting in a fantastic studio here at Ultimate Media, a professional podcasting studio with professional mics, and we’re doing a professionally sort of produced, podcast, aren’t we?

[00:01:13] Ethan Baird: Yeah, and this is something we talk about with every single client we work with is, the goals of the podcast, right? Like why are you even doing it in the first place? 

[00:01:21] Hendrik Baird: And once you know why you’re doing it, how will you know that it’s been a success? 

[00:01:25] Ethan Baird: Because there’s so many different ways to measure that. And I think a lot of people assume that audience growth is the whole metric. And I think there’s a lot more to that as we’ll discover with some of the people we’ve spoken to. 

[00:01:36] Hendrik Baird: So in this episode, we are exploring why the people we have interviewed so far went into podcasting and what they want to get from it.

Not so? 

[00:01:47] Ethan Baird: Yeah. Yeah. And maybe what we can do is start with ourselves. Like, why did we do this in the first place? 

[00:01:53] Hendrik Baird: Why are we doing this podcast? 

[00:01:54] Ethan Baird: Specifically this exact one? I think it would be interesting for people to understand what the point is and what does this bring to our company? Because that’s really why we’re doing it.

[00:02:02] Hendrik Baird: So this is really one great big advertisement, isn’t it? It’s also an example. So on the one hand, we want to sell books. The book is called Become a Podmaster. Everything you want to know to master the art of podcasting available on our website, on amazon. com, everywhere where you buy books online. It’s also extra bonus material, resource material for the clients that we have who are in the process of starting their own podcasts.

[00:02:31] Ethan Baird: Yeah. We think that there’s a huge amount of really interesting insights that people have given in the episodes that we’ve recorded and like right now we have a student who’s busy working through the podcast, reading the book before he starts the Podmaster program. So he has like a fully rounded idea of what other people are doing so that by the time he wants to start his own show, he knows kind of where to begin, right?

So, yeah, it is a resource. 

[00:02:56] Hendrik Baird: And it’s also a way to tell people to come and, you know, if you want to start a podcast, come to us, we can help you to do it. 

[00:03:03] Ethan Baird: Because we can show you our expertise and not just tell you our expertise.

[00:03:07] Hendrik Baird: Indeed. Show and tell. There are different metrics that people use, like you said earlier, to define their success.

Some people look at the download numbers. Others look for feedback from the audience. You know, how many, Comments do they get on Facebook, for instance? Uh, how many questions do they get? How many calls do they get to buy whatever products they have for sale? 

[00:03:30] Ethan Baird: Yeah. I think the big thing here is what’s going to keep you going because we do preach that a podcast doesn’t have to be a weekly thing.

You can do a shorter podcast, but ultimately a podcast does kind of have to be long term in some capacity. Either you have to market it in the long term or people will be listening to it for a couple of years from now. So what’s the thing that’s going to keep you going? And I think having a very clear goal and measurement for success will really help you stay motivated to keep pushing through when you have three people listening to your show initially and you’re not really getting the results, but you know what you’re working towards.

So I think that’s also what we’re going to explore is like, what is it that drives people to actually do this and to stick with it? 

[00:04:12] Hendrik Baird: I think that’s also an important point is, you know, people start doing one thing and then they feel stuck in doing the same thing over and over again and they get bored and then they give up.

And, um, some people get through that point, and instead of giving up, they pivot, they change track, they go into something different, uh, topic wise, or, or genre wise, or format wise uh, to keep the interest going. So for me also, it’s about more longer term planning. We emphasize this a lot in our Podmaster Startup program, where we help new podcasters get going, is how do you plan this thing so it becomes sustainable. Are you going to do it weekly, bi weekly once a month, or are you going to do short seasons, you know, two seasons a year or whatever, you know, most people that we work with, certainly our business people, coaches, those sort of, uh, entrepreneurs who have full time occupations, they work for a living. And they can’t afford to become full time podcasters, that’s not why they’re here. And so how do you plan it in such a way that it becomes more bite sized, more manageable? You can spend two weeks, do it, get it out of the way, and then roll it out and ride on it for the next two years. 

So they say podcasting is for a younger audience, isn’t it? It’s the new medium for the new generation. And interestingly, Sam Mitchell was introduced to podcasting while he was still in school. And, uh, it started out as a young podcaster and obviously he’s learned a lot over the years. So let’s check in with Sam. His podcast is called Autism Rocks and Rolls. 

[00:05:41] Sam Mitchell: My name is Sam Mitchell and I run the podcast Autism Rocks and Rolls.

It started when I joined my high school’s media club and I loved it so much and I never heard of a podcast until then. So when I found out about the podcast, it clicked with me so much that I figured I couldn’t do my high school’s media club podcast forever. So only my new to continue my media skills was to just start my own, and that was when Autism Rocks and Rolls was born.

[00:06:05] Ethan Baird: What I really loved about my chat with Sam is that this is a true passion for him. This is not about making a million dollars. This is not some kind of a shortcut to success. He is so truly passionate about the topics that he speaks about and about the people that he speaks to, that ultimately, I believe you’ll keep going for as long as he can, because he’s got so much to say. 

[00:06:31] Hendrik Baird: Sam was also saying about the purpose of his podcast.

[00:06:35] Sam Mitchell: It brings purpose, the fact that you get to share certain stories that I either didn’t say because you had to be there to understand it, or maybe you just don’t understand it all because it’s something you take for granted.

[00:06:46] Hendrik Baird: We met Aphiwe in the first episode, or one of the previous episodes, or one of the episodes. Aphiwe is one of our guests in this series. 

[00:06:54] Aphiwe Mame: Hi, I am Apiwe Mame. I am the producer and host for Digify Africa Unplugged Conversations. So when we were creating this podcast, we were really answering or sort of speaking to the question around what kind of conversations are we having about 4IR.

I think since 2016 in South Africa, there was that big conversation around, you know, the fourth industrial revolution and what really that meant. And so we wanted to investigate beyond policy and beyond the broader conversation and so far as as as our public discourse, what does what it mean for an everyday person?

How does it impact the way we navigate life and our lived experiences? And so we really wanted to investigate what are the implications on your everyday life. And so that’s why we look at concepts like, you know, digital education, digital marketing, you know, access. And what does it mean using an app when you’re living in a remote area in the Eastern Cape? Is it accessible? What kind of infrastructure is in those areas? 

And so really, For us, it was about, you know, tapping into those kind of conversations, answering certain questions, and also trying to raise awareness around the existence of the digital economy, and also expanding it to the rest of the continent.

Because I think often when we are looking at such, um, you know, concepts in the country, specifically South Africa, we tend to have a very insular approach to those kinds of conversations. I was also really interested in what is happening across the continent and how are people responding to the emerging technologies and what does that mean?

Right. And so when we say that Kenya is the African Silicon Valley, what does that mean? Right. So do they have different issues when it comes to internet access? And yes, they do. So again, we’ve got to sort of, um, highlight and provide insight in terms of how different countries on the continent are responding to 4IR.

[00:08:46] Hendrik Baird: Podcasting can also be a good way to give people career advice and guidance, you know, young people these days, there are so many jobs that when I grew up, didn’t even exist. We didn’t even think about them. I think that’s an interesting avenue to explore also in a podcast you know. Say for instance, people want to go into the consulting field, you can listen to a lot of podcasts and hear what other people are doing and, and get into it that way.

[00:09:11] Ethan Baird: Yeah. Because I think one of the amazing things about podcasts is the kinds of conversations that you get to be like a fly on the wall of. And it’s exactly as you say, if you’re trying to enter an industry, there is nothing better than to actually listen to two people in that industry, have a proper in depth discussion on it.

I mean, one of the podcasts that I started back in the day, which had two whole episodes, it’s called The New Musician Podcast. And the whole point of it for me was to like, interview people and have them tell me how to become a musician. 

[00:09:40] Hendrik Baird: You succeeded in two episodes and got everything you needed, of course.

[00:09:43] Ethan Baird: Yeah, I know I’m a multi Grammy award winning, um, but it did really give me some real insights about things that honestly, I would never have considered about how to actually get gigs, how to actually break in. The advice I got from the interviews I record in that podcast was like invaluable. So yeah, definitely a super valuable tool for new career beginners, new people in the industry. 

[00:10:07] Hendrik Baird: I spoke to Mariette, she’s very interesting. She’s a journalist. She works at a magazine and her podcast is linked to the magazine and her wellness platform. 

[00:10:17] Mariette Snyman: Hi, I’m Mariette Snyman my podcast series is called Calm, Clear and Helpful. I must mention that the whole idea behind my platform is not only to offer solid information, but also to introduce readers and listeners, I’ve got readers too, since I’ve got articles as well, to introduce them to wellness experts. That’s actually the whole aim behind my platform, because when I was a journalist, people would often ask me, which therapist would you recommend? Or which coach can I go to? And so I found that, that there’s a gap people want to People need to get to know wellness experts so they can speak to one that resonates with them.

And the interesting thing was because my podcast series went live in 2021, uh, online therapy and coaching and other sort of wellness work had just come into vogue. Which was a lucky coincidence, I suppose. So, to get back to the editing process, I take a lot of trouble with editing. I want it to be an easy listen.

Very often, the content, I wouldn’t say it’s complicated, but it consists of concepts. So, it must be easy to listen to. And I take a lot of trouble with editing to make it an easy listen. 

[00:11:40] Hendrik Baird: What is important to note here with Mariette is that, you know, she’s got the magazine, it’s all about wellness and so on, but the podcast extends her reach, extends her platform, extends her voice.

So it’s an extension of what something that she’s already doing. And I think that’s an interesting point to take up. If you, if you have written a book, for instance, a self help book, How to Become a Podmaster, it might be interesting to do a series of podcasts on how to become a podmaster and delve into some of the topics that you covered into the book, as we are doing right now.

[00:12:14] Ethan Baird: Because basically what it does, and in terms of the goals, is that it’s giving my audience extra resources, right? It’s giving my audience extra information and utilizing the strength of podcasting to convey the kinds of things that you can’t easily convey via text. You can’t easily convey in an infographic.

There’s no way to quickly summarize a half an hour long discussion. You know, you just kind of have to be there for it. So I like your point of the goal of her podcast is to extend what she’s already doing, amplify. 

[00:12:42] Hendrik Baird: And now the inverse is also true. I’ve written a book. We’re doing the podcast. And most probably at the end of season two, we’ll have enough material from all these interviews we’ve done to do a second book, you know, about people’s practical experiences of doing podcasting.

So it’s that whole repurposing thing we were also talking about. 

[00:13:01] Kenny Archer: I’m Kenny Archer. We’ve got a podcast that we call Weekly Chat with Kenny. Everybody wants to do well, end of the day, and I say quite often, as long as people are pitching up on a Friday morning, the podcast will keep going. There’s no ambition to make it going to the top 10 or top 100 or the top 20.

I’m not really worried about that as long as there’s still downloads happening every week and as long as people are still showing up, I’ll carry on doing it. It’s in my diary for the rest of my life, as long as for, for the affinity. Yes, every now and again, we do look at it and go, okay, well we meet once a month and we kind of get to talk about topics and we do look at the numbers.

And as long as it’s remaining constant, I’m happy and comfortable with it. So if it one day grows and does get to the top 10, well then bonus. If it doesn’t, it’s okay. As long as people are still getting the value out of it. And the measurement for that is all they keep turning up. They keep downloading. 

[00:13:59] Ethan Baird: What I find interesting about coach Kenny’s podcast is that his goals are really exclusively about serving his audience.

He has no interest in getting lots of listeners. He has no interest in growing this massively. What he wants is to create a space for his coaching group to be able to have interesting discussions. And for then the people who won’t be able to listen, weren’t able to be there for the discussion to go back and listen to it. And if that happens, he’s happy. 

[00:14:27] Hendrik Baird: So I think the, the point here is that quality trumps quantity. If you have good quality, it doesn’t matter how many listeners you have. The ones that you do have will really benefit from it. It’s that thing, if I’ve reached one person, I’ve done my job. Isn’t that so?

[00:14:44] Ethan Baird: Cause this is truly altruism for him. This has got nothing to do with him growing his company. It’s got nothing to do with anything other than I want to give back. 

[00:14:54] Hendrik Baird: Nicole is probably, now we’re talking about Nicole Engelbrecht, who’s got a true crime podcast. She’s one of the biggest podcasters in this country.

[00:15:02] Ethan Baird: Yeah no, True Crime South Africa is genuinely a monolith of our industry. And she’s like genuinely blazing the trail for the rest of South African podcast industry to catch up with her. Nicole’s awesome. 

[00:15:12] Hendrik Baird: So when I spoke to Nicole, I mean, yes, download numbers are important for her, but what is even more important is to get discussions going with her audience and the depth of engagement that she gets through the various platforms that she’s on really, You know, really takes us to another level.

She gets conversations going and she reaches out to people who are in similar predicaments because what she said to me is her podcast really focuses on the victim and not on the perpetrator. She doesn’t want to glorify the perpetrator. She wants to tell the story from the victim’s perspective. And a lot of people who find themselves in kind of similar situations where they can start seeing the warning signs would have discussions with her and you know, she would put them in touch with the right people as well if they’re in real danger, like a safe house or somebody to talk to, a counselor or so on.

 Bertolt Brecht predicted this in the 30s already. Bertolt Brecht being, of course, a very famous German playwright and actor, and he said radio will only truly become effective when it becomes two way communication. 

[00:16:19] Nicole Engelbrecht: Hi, I’m Nicole Engelbrecht. I am the creator and host of the True Crime South Africa podcast.

Unfortunately, it takes up quite a bit of my day at the moment. It’s sort of ongoing. I mean, I’ve got all the platforms on my phone. Um, so I’ll check in three, four times a day and respond to comments. Um, it takes up a lot of my time and at some points I will need to have someone, you know, helping me with that, but I think that I will always will keep a personal presence, but, you know, it, as it grows, it, it becomes quite significant.

And then you get people that will start emailing you as well, and, you know, DMing you. And that’s another thing as well, you know, in the beginning, it’s always exciting to start getting DMs from your listeners. And I still appreciate that, but it can become overwhelming. So also, you know, when you’re picking your media platforms, maybe keep your DMS either to one platform or ask people just to email you, because that can become overwhelming very quickly.

[00:17:23] Hendrik Baird: So, uh, every time, so. I don’t know, do you have these vocal hooks? Ethan and I always start our sentences with, so.

[00:17:31] Ethan Baird: I’ve been trying so hard not to say absolutely every time you say anything . 

[00:17:35] Hendrik Baird: 100%. 

[00:17:36] Lindsay Phillips: I think it’s a bit of both. I mean, obviously you want downloads, obviously you want, you know, to rank, you want people to listen to the episodes and for it to be helpful.

You know, when I get feedback that like, oh my God, that episode was super helpful. This is my takeaway. Or when you do see a review, it feels good, right? That you’re helping someone, you know, I wish back when I began my podcast that I maybe listen to a bunch more and probably would have tuned into a few of those tips for my own podcast a little bit quicker, but.

And you want your podcast to succeed. You also want to grow your business through it and, you know, get leads and you want, you know, people to listen to it on your website. You want that traffic to your website. You want comments on your social media posts that relate to your podcast. So the numbers are, they’re valuable and they’re important.

You don’t want crickets and, you know, for no one to know the show exists, but again, it’s, it’s kind of like, where are you going to spend or invest your time and money? Are you going to do Facebook ads to get more listenership, to get more leads or affiliate sales? If you, you know, have commercials or affiliate money coming in, or do you want to focus on those relationships, creating collaborations, partnerships, referrals, to generate sales. So it kind of, you just, you can still benefit from all the different things, but it’s where are you focusing your time and your energy, I think. 

[00:19:25] Hendrik Baird: I think it’s much the same for Lindsay as well.

She also depends on numbers and also on feedback. So I think that’s an interesting combination of things is not just the numbers, but also to have positive feedback and reviews. So you can actually see that your podcast is having an impact. 

[00:19:40] Ethan Baird: Yeah. I think impact is incredibly important to most podcasts, especially podcasters that have like a message that they want to get out there or a group that they want to help.

I think in terms of motivation and it’s exactly the same with Lindsay, that feedback to see there’s actually real people on the other side getting real value from you is an incredible motivator and really helps you keep going. 

[00:20:02] Hendrik Baird: And also for her, it’s a sense of personal satisfaction because she’s got an emotional connection with her podcast.

And it’s what we said earlier, if you don’t enjoy doing it, if you’re not emotionally involved in it, then why the hell do it in the first place?

So we were talking listener numbers and engagement and Deogen also emphasizes that measuring success has to do with how engaged the audience is rather than how many of them are listening. I mean, you can have 2 million people listening to the first five seconds and tune out, or you can have 10 that are really, really engaged, which is the more valuable.

[00:20:39] Diogène Ntirandekura: Hi, my name is Diogen Ntirandekura , and I am the podcast host of, uh, consulting lifestyle. I am also a digital transformation consultant, and I own the company called ERP happy. So the, the, the success, I measure it both in, uh, engagement and, but engagement I think is the most important part. But also in, uh, the download.

But the downloads, you know, in a part it’s a difficult, uh, metric in the sense that if I listen to two seconds, uh, it’s a download. Uh, if I listen to the whole episode, it’s one download as well. 

[00:21:15] Ethan Baird: Podcast metrics really are so hard to track though. It’s, it’s, it’s crazy.

[00:21:18] Hendrik Baird: I was reading an article the other day, if, it depends which, which platform it’s on, if it’s Apple or, you know, they all have their own metrics, but some measure, even if you just download the episode and never listen to it, it counts as a download. It counts as a listen. If you listen to two seconds of it, it counts as a full listen. It’s so interesting. Like, can we trust these numbers? 

[00:21:40] Ethan Baird: People engaging and giving you feedback is so much more useful than just raw data because you know, you can actually trust the feedback.

Speaking of engagements, Nicole also spoke about the fact that audience engagement is a really important thing for her to track. And in fact, you can potentially even use this engagement to start figuring out what kind of content to focus on in future. If you get a huge response, not just in download numbers, but in people actually telling you how much they loved it or giving you insights on it, you might think, okay, maybe this kind of story is something I should be focusing on. 

[00:22:14] Hendrik Baird: But now podcasting is not just something that happens out there in the ether. There’s actually people at the other end listening to it. And if you’re a clever podcaster, if you are really taking this seriously, you will start building a community. There’s a movie, is it on Prime or somewhere about, it’s called the podcast movie was done in 2016 or somewhere like that. And it tells a story of some podcast in the U S who had people from all over the world listening. And then there was that tsunami in Japan and how that whole community came together to help one of the listeners who was in Japan, who reached out and said, listen, I’m stuck here in my little house, there’s water everywhere, I don’t know what to do, uh, I just want to tell you about this, and she got help from around the world, and how these people eventually traveled to the U. S., met up, and there was tears of joy, there were friendships, they’d never met each other, but it was through the content of the podcast they were listening to, Uh, that they were bound together in a community.

So, I think it’s really important that when you start a podcast, you don’t just think about your content and yourself and your numbers, but you think about the actual real people on the other side listening to this, who might be diverse from around the world, different cultures, different languages, um, but they all have one thing in common, and that’s that they are engaging with your content. And therefore you can use that to your advantage. 

[00:23:40] Ethan Baird: One of the things we preach about constantly, it feels like, is repurposing content. And now I specifically want to talk to the business podcasters, the people who want to start a podcast so that they can create content for their social media feeds and their website.

A podcast is a incredible tool to get a huge amount of content in various formats, and it’s as simple as recording an incredible episode of your podcast, transcribing it, and then taking that transcript and repurposing it across various formats. This could be blog articles, infographics, video snippets, um, and then the podcast kind of becomes like the well from which all the other content springs, where you get to have your voice and, you know, have these discussions and make this interesting content.

But then if you have a team on board or even just are very clever with AI tools, you can create a gigantic amount of content for all your different platforms. 

[00:24:34] Hendrik Baird: Steve Ramona talks about this. 

[00:24:36] Steve Ramona: My name is Steve Ramona. I’m in Northern California. My podcast is Doing Business with a Servant’s Heart. I’m starting to learn Eclipse or I’m not hiring somebody, but that’s the next goal.

Do some shorts, throw some Instagram, people ask me for some reels on Instagram and maybe TikTok. I’m not a big fan of TikTok, I know a lot of people are. But LinkedIn is my big play because that’s where my, uh, referrals come from , and where my big audience is. I think repurposing, that’s the whole goal. And here’s the other thing: I tell my guests to repurpose it because they can repurpose it themselves.

I, it’s free. There’s no copyright on this because remember when you do a podcast and they’re promoting it, you’re getting promoted. So they have a free will, you know, they’re just cutting it up and I see them once in a while pop up and it’s fantastic. I learned about a month ago. It just came to me as I tell all my guests go. Now I have 142. I’ve got a lot of people. I said that’s my network. Go through all my shows and if somebody resonates with you reach out to them. Say hey, I listened to you on Steve’s podcast. I’d love to connect and talk more see how we can work together. So that’s another repurpose. I don’t know if I invented it. I’ve never heard anybody do it, but that is such a cool way to build another, again, giving, I’m always thinking about ways, how can I give back to my guests? And that’s a great way. So I’ve had guests, you know, collaborate together and do some business together. 

[00:26:00] Hendrik Baird: Steve’s collaborative approach to repurposing, um, is really interesting in that he encourages his guests to repurpose the content also for their benefit. So it’s not just him repurposing. He’s telling them, look, here’s the podcast. Go and do something with it. Um, let the world read your articles based on this. And, and, you know, the books you write on it or the movies you make because of it. So that also brings us back to that idea of community.

It’s not just you in isolation. Your guests are part of your community, their community is part of your community. And so you can really reach out in the same way. Kenny does repurposing specifically into text. 

[00:26:36] Kenny Archer: We do use bits and pieces from it, but we would put it into text stuff. We wouldn’t actually use the actual sound out from it.

And I think the reason for that is we want to keep a clean, um, safe space. We don’t want people to feel that, you know, we just taking material out of it and that it’s a safe space for people it’s, it’s got nothing to do with the rest of the business so unless we’re trying to drive people to join the weekly chat, then we won’t use any of it.

If we are, we will then say, here’s a text from it. people’s comments about why they stay on the weekly chat or why they keep coming back. Um, so what’s actually said in the, in the, in the session, that we won’t take it out and put it out to the world. 

[00:27:19] Hendrik Baird: The other interesting thing is, you know, in the old days, we used to have these little sound bites that we used to take and you put it on some little program and it makes this waveform.

[00:27:29] Ethan Baird: The audiogram. 

[00:27:29] Hendrik Baird: The audiogram. . And the audiogram is dead, isn’t it? 

[00:27:32] Ethan Baird: I think it is. I think nowadays people have realized that a little picture with a little squiggly line doesn’t really keep people’s attention that much. So the modern trend is to do video podcasting. If you do want visual content or, and if you have the budget and, uh, the, perhaps the know how is to do like an animated kind of piece of video. But yeah, I think people have kind of moved beyond just a little screen line for their video snippets, but video snippets are still a super super.

[00:28:04] Hendrik Baird: And audio snippets, too. If you strategically, in a slideshow or a presentation or something like that could work very well.

[00:28:12] Ethan Baird: Yeah, subtitles a little bit of animation go a long way 

[00:28:16] Hendrik Baird: So let’s wrap up.

Ethan, there are very many ways into podcasting and very many reasons why people do podcasts. Is it about community? Is it about numbers? Is it about engagement? Is it about promoting your business? There’s so many different goals that people have and so many different ways to measure that success.

[00:28:37] Ethan Baird: Yeah. And I think the big thing I want people to take away is, what is the goal of your podcast? What’s going to keep you going when it becomes real work? You know, because even the most fun and interesting and engaging piece of podcasting is still ultimately going to require you to put in work. And once you’re a couple episodes deep, you’re going to need something to motivate you beyond just the act of recording it itself.

[00:29:00] Hendrik Baird: It’s got to do with how do you create content that touches somebody in such a direct way that they will want to engage with you and start a conversation? And I think if your podcast is a conversation starter, then you are well on your way to success. I think people like Nicole who talked about the engagement and building a community, that’s really what we want to do as podcasters, as sound artists in a way.

You know, it’s not just listen to it, switch it off and go and have a bath and get on with your day. But it intrigues me so much what you said about podcasting or about business or about some crime, that I really want to ask you a question or two, and I want to share my experience and maybe, you know, get advice or something.

And maybe there’s other people within the group that I’m part of here, this community that could help me, that I could be friends with, that I could communicate, even if they’re on the other side of the world. And I think that is the true measure of podcasting success. 

[00:30:02] Ethan Baird: And of course, if you are interested in starting a podcast of your own, uh, you can check out our website, Baird. Media. Uh, the links will be in the description of this episode, and you can also check out our book, Become a Podmaster, Everything You Need to Know to Master the Art of Podcasting. You can search for it up on Amazon, Takealot, or just on our website.

[00:00:00] Hendrik Baird:

Hendrik Baird: So, as usual, let’s start with something that has got absolutely nothing to do with podcasting. Ethan, what do you call a moose that has no name? An anonymoose.

Ethan.

Before you start leveraging your podcast for your business’s benefit, what are the two most important things that you need to consider?

Ethan. Before you start leveraging your podcast for your business’s benefit, what are the two most important things that you need to consider? 

[00:00:31] Ethan Baird: So I’ve got the cheat sheet in front of me because we are a professional team that scripts and plans their podcasts. Uh, but ultimately, uh, but ultimately you’ve got to understand the purpose and the audience of the podcast.

Why are you doing this and who are these people before you can start getting business benefits out of it? And I think Walter has some incredible insights about how businesses can actually do this, how they can have marketing and sales goals, and then place their podcasts in such a way the podcast to start achieving these goals, or at least contribute to that success.

[00:01:02] Walter Gainer II: Hi, my name is Walter Gainer the second. I’m a digital marketing podcaster. So it’s important if you’re into podcasts to know what your podcast is, why it exists, um, and who it’s for. Um, that’s the same from entertainment, pop culture, niche shows about bird watching, to B2B shows as well.

Um, I think businesses often forget that it’s not just a marketing tool, but a podcast, they’re, um, kind of special. Cause they, this is something that someone could follow, uh, subscribe to, and something they’ll listen to, to provide value into their lives or in B2B case, typically their businesses. So before you even think about how to leverage it, you really got to know what’s the purpose.

Why does this podcast exist? And that’s kind of aligning both with your business objectives, your marketing goals, and also the end goal for the user, the ideal prospect. Now, once you understand that, then it’s like, okay, and now how do we leverage it? So there’s a couple of different ways you could use podcasting.

One is, um, demand generation, um, building brand awareness. As a sales tool, right for reaching your ideal prospects, like, it’s into, like, the, the account based marketing stuff. Well, you can also use it internally as well to kind of speak with all of your um, stakeholders, employees, and all that as well. But my favorite one to talk about is that kind of account based marketing.

And that’s really using your podcast to reach your ideal prospects. Um, having them on as a guest even, and then kind of using that tool, that podcast to build a relationship with them. So whether as a guest or as a listener, the guest part is a part that people often kind of leave out. And I know people would build whole businesses around helping people to, um, use podcasts to build relationships with their ideal prospects as guests.

So, basically, it’s like, if I have a show about marketing on LinkedIn, right? And my business is a digital marketing agency, and we specialize in, um, LinkedIn marketing, um, I can speak about linkedIn marketing all the time, right? And I might end up finding a few clients, but with ABM, you could actually reach out to LinkedIn experts, people maybe who work in a company, one as a client and having them to come on as a guest.

And once you do that, you help them share their expertise. You create a great relationship between you two. It kind of breaks down that kind of cold barrier if you were to just send out an email and try to reach them. So you have this relationship with the guest and then from there, you can kind of discuss whether or not you want to continue that relationship in a business sense or as a colleague.

They’re a bit more likely to become a customer if you’re providing something that they need. So, um, for businesses using podcasts to reach their marketing or sales goals, um, there’s so many different ways you could do it, but it’s really kind of understanding who you want to listen, who you want to eventually, you know, sell to, and how you’re using a podcast to kind of reach those customers.

[00:04:24] Hendrik Baird: The idea of aligning the purpose of the podcast with your business objectives and your audience needs, is a very important one. You can’t just go out and do anything. You’ve got to have a clear strategy if, if your podcast is meant to help your business or promote your business or generate business for you.

[00:04:41] Ethan Baird: I love the concept of audience needs, putting the audience right in the front and making sure that you’re actually giving them value. So that it’s not just one long ad because nobody wants to sit through one long ad. Even if the goal of the podcast is to advertise something or to market something like this one is, we’re hoping that all of these interviews that we’re busy sharing with you are actively helping you, so that even if you don’t end up purchasing any of our products, you leave more informed and more confident after having listened to our content.

[00:05:11] Hendrik Baird: There are also very many ways that a business can leverage podcasts, uh, including demand generation, brand awareness, sales, internal communications. I spoke to somebody the other day, said their podcast is purely for internal use for their staff to keep them up to date, what’s happening, to give them the latest news and news about all the products and stuff that are, you know, new or changed or something like that. So that’s really important. So a podcast can be very versatile. Two for achieving a great many business objectives, whether it’s in house sales, promotions, or just, you know, building credibility. 

[00:05:47] Ethan Baird: Account based marketing is a buzzword that we’ve heard quite a lot, especially when we speak to, you know, the marketing consultants of the world.

And I love how Walter kind of explained putting potential clients as guests on your show. And this is not the first person we’ve spoken to who uses this as a strategy. I think there’s so many ways to get value out of that. Even if that person who’s your interview guest is not necessarily going to purchase from you, I feel like if I have my ideal customer in front of me in an hour long discussion for a podcast, I feel like there are so many useful questions and insights I could gain. And then potentially I could even convert this person into a prospect as well. So it’s really interesting to be very strategic with who you actually get on your show, With the goal of speaking to the kinds of people you want to be setting to.

[00:06:32] Hendrik Baird: Natalie has an interesting way. She doesn’t directly aim to attract clients, but her podcast serves as a tool for humanizing her business and showcasing authenticity. So let’s listen to how Natalie uses her podcast. 

[00:06:47] Natalie King: So my name is Natalie and I’m the Introverts Coach. And the podcast is about a journey. And what Lenka and I want to share is our journey so that potential clients can see that we are on a journey ourselves.

So we both coaches, she works very much in marketing. I work with, with confidence and it’s about bringing the human into the business. It’s a place where we are ourselves. We are vulnerable. We will share if we having a struggling with something in our life and what we are doing in order to work through that or in order to find solutions and that’s how we want to bring clients in. But it hasn’t been about bringing clients into our businesses. It’s been more about helping other people realize it’s okay to be on a journey. It’s okay if you stumble and fall because we are doing it ourselves. And we are very much stumbling sometimes, and sometimes we winning, and this is what, what it is about. It’s bringing the human into our business, and it’s a place where you can’t always promote that you struggling with something when you’re networking or on your website or anything, but this is a place where I can say to clients, you know, what, go listen to my podcast. This is where you will get my struggles or you will get why I’m doing something the way I am. So it does connect, but it wasn’t aimed to connect, if that makes sense. It’s very much because we both have different businesses and different audiences. We brought this podcast as just a place where I can be Natalie. She is Lenka and we almost put the business persona aside, and it comes out a little bit, obviously, but it’s not about business. It’s about human connection and building relationships and experiencing life, really.

[00:08:56] Ethan Baird: I love the concept of authenticity when it comes to podcasting, because it is a medium that by default is a bit less formal. It’s a bit less structured, although asterisk, asterisk, there’s so many ways to do it. But even like what we’re busy recording now, we have a structure, but we’re still trying to be ourselves. We’re still trying to convey our own personalities and our own thoughts and concepts and opinions. And I feel like having a podcast like Natalie does, where she’s actively using it to have people learn more about her as a human being, be authentically herself in her podcast, so that her audience can truly connect with her, and has the side benefit of the people who aren’t part of our audience will leave as well because they know, Oh, this isn’t the kind of person for me, you filtering people in a way.

[00:09:41] Hendrik Baird: So what she’s doing is she builds trust and credibility by sharing personal journeys and the challenges. It helps to get that real connection with the listener and with the potential client, because she, she’s vulnerable, she’s authentic, and she and her co host then position themselves as relatable and trustworthy figures in their respective fields.

Which then ultimately can attract the clients who value authenticity and, and the human connection. That’s really what we’re after hey? We want to, if we want to do business with somebody, it’s got to be with somebody I already know a little bit that I can trust and that I feel is a human. It’s not just an AI that I’m, you know, these automated things, you answer the phone and you’ve got three minutes of being put through the hoops. Can I please speak to a person? It’s the same thing here. And I think that’s a really good example of it. Next up is Lindsay. Lindsay highlighting the importance of integrating the podcast into the overall business strategy.

[00:10:33] Lindsay Phillips: I always say your podcast is not like a silo. It has to be an integral part of your business and your marketing plan. I love podcasting because it gives you a long form piece of content that you can use the video. You can use the audio, you can repurpose it and you can create a blog. You know, a post on your website.

So, to me, I’m like, I’m all for doing something once and then getting many purposes out of it and really leverage it fully versus burning the candles at both ends and feeling like you have to do, like, all of these videos and go live and do a blog and do a podcast like. It’s exhausting. There’s a lot to do as it is.

But again, you want to be strategic and especially have your podcast branded so that it’s going with your business and your business brand. Because some people have a podcast and it looks completely different from what their business is. And so to me, I’m like, that’s super confusing and if you’re going to confuse the audience, then they’re not going to correlate your business with that.

So you want it to be a part of your business plan for sure. 

[00:11:53] Ethan Baird: Having a podcast be central to your business strategy in my mind ties into the concept of having your marketing be central to your business strategy, which it has to be, right? There is no way you can run a business without some form of letting people know who you are, what your services are, what you do.

And I feel like the way that Lindsay’s explained this, you can truly make decisions about your business, about your messaging, about everything by having your podcast as like the fulcrum of your marketing strategy, right? We’ve spoken ad nauseum about repurposing, but I think this all ties into that, where you can have your authentic message in your podcast, you can repurpose it, and then you can have that message filter out into your website, into every aspect of your company.

[00:12:38] Hendrik Baird: Steve talks about networking, how, uh, his podcasts serve as networking hubs and building relationships, not just with the audience, but also with the guests. 

[00:12:49] Steve Ramona: My name is Steve Ramona. I’m in Northern California. My podcast is Doing Business with a Servant’s Heart. I realized after three or four months of doing it that every guest is a hub for me. I give them referrals, you know, everyone I try to give a referral to one, two, maybe 10. It just depends on the person, but I’m able to build a relationship through the podcast. Because I get to know them. They get to know me.

And then what happens is, which is really powerful, as they start bringing me referrals. I start growing. I’ve added in the last three months to over 2000 people to my network that I can call right now and refer people to them and help them grow their business and vice versa. So the massive numbers of networking and networking groups, I’ve been doing that for five years. That works. But this has an emotion, goodwill, a win win aspect to it because I’m promoting my guest, I’m promoting my podcast. People are learning about me, learning about my guests, and it really strengthens the bond when I network. So these are really good networking opportunities. That’s like, Hey, I just met this person that’s not in the working group. Maybe I will see him another week passively. This is a very non-passive way of growing the network. 

[00:14:08] Hendrik Baird: This format allows for a much deeper engagement. You can have very meaningful interactions. You can create a friend really, if you make the effort to do so. And this would result in long term relationships, ultimately leading to sustainable growth for the network and for other business opportunities.

So podcasting is a really useful tool for business. Podcasting is also very useful for a non-profit. Let’s find out from Sam what the link is between his podcast and a non profit organization. 

[00:14:38] Sam Mitchell: My name is Sam Mitchell and I run the podcast, Autism Rocks and Rolls. The events and any areas where I’m from and the speaking engagements is what keeps us going and that’s what the revenue was generated. We just recently got done with a AR summer fest where we had the all access band and local band moves in Indiana play for us and Chicago’s own Duke Tumatoe. He was an old timer, but he could still pretty much go. And we also had a lot of fun things. We had a prize wheel, an adult scavenger on the portal, and ice came out.

It was a blast, but we made some revenue off of that, too. And it was at a pumpkin patch. I have a section in the podcast called pay for the following and pay for the following means that you have to pay to get an ad, which means it’s a little longer than my thank yous. The thing is I’m like five or 10 seconds.

Whereas these pay for the follies is 15 seconds. And if you do sponsor I advertise for you in the show But then also I advertise for you during my radio appearances during my podcast appearances, which I’ll give a shout to some right now. Dependable dave is a sponsor of ours; Creative Dynamics Virtual Service in Canada; Wellspring Pain Solutions; and a Fowler Pumpkin Patch.

So those are some of my big ones. Stonebelt’s another one, Unlocking the Spectrum. So we definitely have some tie-ins there, but the way we’re making that money and making this podcast the base of the Non-profit, so we can have the ability to go out and do the other fun stuff that make the money. And I have a website too.

I mean autism rocks rules. com you get Add there and people definitely do check out the website if not the podcast. So There’s definitely somewhere where you’re going to get recognition. I mean, the people in Canada right now, they’re going to get recognition for my last episode. And people in Indiana and the North United States heard about that company. They may not care about it, but they at least know it’s there. And that’s the part I care about. 

[00:16:48] Hendrik Baird: So again, integrating your podcast with your business, whether it’s for profit or not for profit, is a great way to leverage revenue through the podcast so that you can support your nonprofit or your business initiatives.

And again, we’ve got to talk about aligning your business or your goals of your business, whether it’s profit or nonprofit with a mission. So it’s again, aligning the mission of your business, profit or nonprofit, with your podcast and creating a symbiotic relationship that drives mutual success.

There is an episode coming up where we’ll be talking much more in detail about monetization, but I think Sam’s example here and his strategy of, uh, pay for the following advertising model, a really useful one. 

[00:17:33] Ethan Baird: Kenny uses the podcast as an extension of his coaching program and his coaching community. He then has a weekly discussion, which gets recorded as a podcast, but ultimately the whole goal in that recording is that people can have genuine connection, talk to each other, talk to him, ask questions, and ultimately improve themselves. 

[00:17:55] Kenny Archer: I’m Kenny Archer. And we’ve got a podcast that we call weekly chat with Kenny. There are business owners that will never be able to afford coaching. We have to be honest with that because they never, especially startup business owners and people that just need something extra, but don’t have the finances to get, have one to one coaching, et cetera.

And every week the questions are questions that are going around in business owners’ heads. And I often dig deep into my own experience and kind of go, okay, so let’s say we are talking communication. Well, what are the challenges that I’ve as a business owner have faced in communication? And those have become the questions that I will put out in the weekly sessions.

So, um, you know, what’s one of the hardest things you’ve had to come across when communicating an uncomfortable situation? And so that becomes a whole conversation and everybody’s input’s valued. And it’s become a very safe area for people and people have opened up about stuff.

Sometimes I have to remind them. Hey, you know what this is going out into the world because they feel so safe in it. And I think that’s probably what makes it different. It’s not about me. It’s not about my business. It’s actually detached from my business. If that makes sense. I don’t go, you know, it’s Archer inspirations, um, weekly chat with Kenny.

No, it’s the weekly chat with Kenny.

[00:19:24] Hendrik Baird: I think what’s interesting for me is, you know, I, I might not be able to afford a coach, but I can afford the time to listen to a coach and get some insights from them. How many times have we just had virtual coffees with coaches and got like, Wow. Amazing moments. A great idea just from a casual conversation. Now, can you imagine how much benefit you could get from a podcast by a coach, and somebody like Kenny certainly provides that kind of valuable insight and support for a wider audience. So I think that’s a really important point here. 

[00:19:57] Ethan Baird: Yeah. And I think for coaches specifically, it’s a way for you to illustrate, show, not tell, the kind of coaching you do, the kind of insights that you have, the kind of value that you can add. So for coaches specifically, I think a podcast is an incredible way to have people really get a sample of what you do because the coaching and the podcast will be honestly quite similar at the end of the day in terms of the content.

[00:20:19] Hendrik Baird: Interestingly, Kenny has a separate podcasting brand from his coaching company brand. Let’s hear how he does that.

[00:20:30] Kenny Archer: It stands on its own. It’s its own brand. It’s not part of the Archer Inspirations Coaching Company. And I’ve always said, I do it with no intention of picking up business from it. It’s my way of giving back to those who can’t have it.

And the funny thing is a lot of those people that are in the podcast, of course they can afford coaching, have other coaches, you know, from completely different other coaching companies. Um, and I’m okay with it. The one lady who’s on there, she came on a couple of times. And the day I found her, she said, Kenny, I don’t need a coach. I’ve got her. I said, no, that’s not the reason for my call. And then it was silent. And it was just about having a conversation to understand her better. And she’s actually done a special edition with me. And we often have conversations outside of the platform about other members and how we can help them in our own way.

Um, and we’ve seen people grow. I mean, you can watch some people and it’s so satisfying. 

[00:21:40] Hendrik Baird: Do you think it’s really important that you maintain a separate identity for the podcast, independent of your company? 

[00:21:46] Ethan Baird: I’d say honestly, for most people, that’s a bad idea. Kenny specifically doesn’t want that much from his podcast, except for the act of giving back. This is not a branding exercise. This is not a marketing exercise. This is a space that is created for his community. So in that way, it makes sense for him. But I think for most business podcasters, you’re kind of leaving money on the table or leaving marketing on the table by fully decoupling your podcast from your brand.

[00:22:15] Hendrik Baird: But I think what Kenny’s doing is, he’s got really genuine intentions here. And that his focus is on supporting somebody’s growth journey and that he’s creating broader networks. So it’s again, goes back to what is the purpose of your podcast? You know, is it to sell your product or is it to foster a community?

Is it to really help to have that sort of altruistic impact? Kind of, I want to help people and this is just a medium that I can do it through. But of course there are many advantages for your business. Let’s talk to Steve. He talks about the significant growth and networking opportunities that his business has experienced since launching his podcast.

[00:22:52] Steve Ramona: I’ve made more money since I launched my podcast in 61 years of my life. First of all, growing and what’s happening in my network. I’m getting high quality people, people that make a hundred million dollars a year in income, people that are way connected to people that may be shark tanks or top influencers.

So I’m not only meeting people by meeting people that could bring me to large groups of people with high incomes that can buy into what I’m selling. We love working, I love working with everybody, but when you get to that type of people, your business will grow fast and furious. 

[00:23:30] Ethan Baird: I will tell you that Steve is a massive fan of podcasting for business. It has become the center of his business. That is how he meets people. That is how he creates content. That is how he creates connections. And yeah, it definitely has paid off. 

[00:23:45] Hendrik Baird: So the podcast for him is then a catalyst for his business’s success. Because he can attract high caliber individuals and foster those valuable connections within his industry, which, of course, all leads back to money in the bank.

[00:23:59] Ethan Baird: Speaking of fostering connections, one thing that a lot of podcasters do in a business context is make sure that they are fostering that relationship after the actual recording. I think Natalie has a great strategy for doing this. 

[00:24:12] Natalie King: So it very much depends on the connection that we have. I usually will connect with Lenka’s guests through LinkedIn, uh, to see where they’re going or to stay in contact with them.

If I feel that I want to get to know them more, I will then reach out and have a further one to one with them, um, More as a sort of a conversation, uh, linker does the same with, with my guests. But because these have been people that we are fairly connected with, we haven’t had to connect more with them, if that makes sense. Now that we, Spreading out a little bit, we are not having to create relationships with people who we would like to be on our podcasts and most probably then would have to sort of stay connected afterwards.

But one thing that we do is when an episode is published, we will then, whether it’s via WhatsApp, email, or, you know, DMs, however, we’ve communicated, we will then give them their links to their episodes. Call them to share around in any way. So we do let them know that their episode is published, give them the links for their episodes so that they can maybe just hit share on WhatsApp if they want to, or the DMs, so that they don’t have to look for the episode it’s, it’s there.

Yeah. And then some, I think we’ve had one guest who actually made a link on her website using her episode to promote what she does. So when you’ve got the link, you can do more with it than having to hunt it down, and find it. So that’s, that’s what we do at the moment. And, obviously as we get guests who are not so much in our inner circle, there will be a bit more relationship building and maintenance afterwards.

[00:26:09] Ethan Baird: To be honest, this is something that I would like to get better at, which is actively maintaining relationships in general as a human being, but also as a podcaster, and it doesn’t even have to be that complicated. It’s just touching in every now and again, keeping track of some people on a spreadsheet so you know who is in your network and providing them value every now and again. Hey, I’ve repurposed the podcast since we’ve last spoken. Here’s a clip. If you want to publish it on your platform, I think there’s just simple ways that you can just touch back in with, uh, the people you’ve interviewed. 

[00:26:39] Hendrik Baird: Yeah. I think it’s interesting how she uses LinkedIn and a great way to keep contact with people through a LinkedIn message and having those one to one conversations that will just deepen that connection with your guests.

[00:26:50] Ethan Baird: Explains it pretty well. 

[00:26:52] Diogen Ntirandekura: Hi, my name is Diogen Ntirandekura and I am the podcast host of Consulting Lifestyle. Really insist on the fact that I see the podcast as a marketing arm, uh, of the company. In terms of, uh, concrete actions, so as soon as an episode is, uh, is published, I, uh, mentioned that on the, um, we make a post on the, uh, on social media, uh, mostly, mostly LinkedIn.

So we may have . Uh, post with the, uh, episode graphic and a summary of what is being talked about, we can also have some clips, uh, that appear later on that week, or even the week, uh, uh, the week after. I, uh, send the mail also to the, uh, to the guest asking her or him to, uh, promote it on the network. Um, I have, um uh, it’s a page as well on the, on, on our website. So erphappy. com slash, uh, episodes, you will find different, uh, uh, podcast episodes there. Um, and on during the, um, the episode, the intro, uh, outro, there are some call to actions. So, uh, asking if people would like to, as I said, that, that, that ideal listener, that is that person that started as a consultant or hesitate to start, there is a call to action to get in touch with me if they want to, uh, explore, uh, that opportunity further.

And by looking at that, they also see that they are in contact with, uh, ERP hub, you know, my company. 

[00:28:23] Hendrik Baird: We’ve, we’ve spoken about this at length in a, in another episode where you, you, you Use the podcast as part of an integrated marketing strategy for your company. Look at how the agenda leverages multiple channels; social media, email, the company website, so that you can get maximum exposure and engagement. And as we said before, engagement is really what it’s all about. It’s not just somebody listening to an episode, it’s somebody listen to an episode and then taking the effort to communicate with you and you making the effort to communicate back and starting that conversation .So I think that’s that’s really important the other thing also that stood out for me here is that you have to have a clear call to action within each of your episodes.

Our call to action is: go to our website, go and buy the book, Become a Podmaster: Everything You Need to Know to Master the Art of Podcasting, available on our website, on Amalot, on takealot. com, on Amazon, everywhere online where you buy books, because that for us is really the lead magnet for our business, is read the book, see what podcasting is all about, if you like that, then you know, you want to start one, then come and we’ll physically help you do that, taking you through all the steps. So that, uh, call to action I think is really important. And then also what, uh, said was, um, to, uh, prompt his listeners to engage further with the company and to find those potential leads in business opportunities and to pursue them.

[00:29:47] Ethan Baird: A controversial question is, does your podcast have to have listeners for anybody to care about it? I think Gary Green has some interesting insights on this. 

[00:29:56] Carey Green: You don’t necessarily need to focus as much on the listenership and, and the number of downloads you’re getting. I do think for the sake of legitimacy in pitching your guests to be on your show, you do need to have some kind of listenership that you can show to them, as you’re going to be exposed to this many people who are interested in the things you talk about, or else they’re not going to be interested in being on your show in the first place.

So it’s a fine balance. And you have to go about it in a way that’s not too salesy and not too pushy. That’s not just a transparent ploy to get a conversation with them. Because you generally do have an audience that you want to submit these ideal clients to as an asset for them to learn from.

[00:30:37] Hendrik Baird: And then the, uh, most important question is at what point do you pitch to your potential clients? Let’s check in again with Carey. 

[00:30:45] Carey Green: The clients I’ve seen do this the best are the ones who flow out of the interview right into a very relaxed conversation between peers. And so they, first of all, will thank them for being on the interview, compliment them on some of their answers. Um, it’s all very genuine and then we’ll say, well, tell me a little bit about your business. I’m very intrigued by what you said about X, Y, Z, you know, tell me more about that. And the people by then are usually very happy to share more about what’s going on in their business and as you, being the one who wants to offer them a particular service, are listening you’re listening for those pain points and you’re listening for those opportunities where you might be able to truly serve them and offer something of value to them. And you say, well, in that situation you just described, how are you handling this, which, you know, might be a trouble area for them or how are you dealing with this challenge?

And you get them talking about that. And if something arises that your service can legitimately address, then that’s where you say, well, we’ve got a number of clients that we help with that kind of thing. Here’s how it looks. Here’s how it works. Is that something you’d be interested in me sending you over some numbers on, you know, that kind of thing.

And it’s, it’s all just very low key and very relaxed. 

[00:31:58] Hendrik Baird: Right, so podcasting as a marketing arm of your business. I think it’s really important that you use the podcast as a marketing tool for your business. Several people have mentioned this today. And you’ve also got to align your podcast with your business goals and to target the interests of your audience. You can’t just speak in the wind. You’ve got to know what your audience wants and therefore target your content accordingly. 

[00:32:26] Ethan Baird: Building relationships and networks is an incredible use of a podcast. Um, and one of the main reasons people do interview podcasts, in my opinion, especially in the business world.

[00:32:35] Hendrik Baird: But as we said, you need to follow up those guests. So you’re just interviewing them and forgetting about them. 

[00:32:39] Ethan Baird: Ultimately, you end up sitting at an hour long discussion with an incredible human being, which you can have relaxed, interesting, fun discussions and interactions with, which is something that people genuinely pay good money for.

You’d pay good money for a good lead to sit with you for an hour and have a discussion. You can literally replicate that for free with your podcast.

[00:32:59] Hendrik Baird: And of course, you’ve got a ton of content that you can repurpose and you need to clear strategy for that, of course, and align your podcast content with the company’s brand identity.

And therefore I encourage you to create engaging and informative content that will resonate with your target audience, so that you can turn all of this into bucks, isn’t it? We want some bang for our buck here.

[00:33:21] Ethan Baird: Speaking of which, yeah, monetization is obviously a major reason why somebody would start a podcast for their business.

We’ll get into that into a future episode, but, uh, one little takeaway I’ll give you is: You don’t want to be selling your audience and selling to your audience. You kind of have to pick one. 

[00:33:37] Hendrik Baird: And what exactly that means we’ll, we’ll get to. And, and it’s also in season one when Gavin spoke about that, hey?.

Right. And just to end off, um, integrate your podcast into your overall business strategy. You know, it’s part of your branding. It’s part of your content strategy. It’s, it’s part of who you are as a business. And really. Get the most use out of it. And if you want to start a podcast for your business, well, you are at the right place.

Come to our website Baird.Media and join our Podmaster startup program. Ethan and I will take you through a six session startup series, where we will not only help you to define your why and your how, but also your what and your where and your when and your ka -hing. So, uh, yeah, it’s on our website Baird.Media.

[00:00:00] Hendrik Baird: A friend told me that his dog retrieved a ball from over a mile away. I don’t know. Seems a bit far fetched.

Ethan has left the building!

Today we’re talking about money. Money, money, money. 

[00:00:25] Ethan Baird: Monetizing a podcast. Big question. 

[00:00:28] Hendrik Baird: Big question. Many answers. We spoke to several people in the podcasting industry and we’ve got some very specific strategies. But before we get to those strategies, it’s crucial to understand the goals of podcast monetization.

Are you looking to generate a supplementary income? Are you looking to cover production costs? Or are you looking at turning podcasting into a full time business venture? It’s only once you have clarified your objectives ,that you will be guided in your monetization efforts. 

[00:00:59] Ethan Baird: And then you’ve got to look at all the different options when it comes to monetization, because podcast monetization goes far beyond traditional advertising.

There’s sponsorships, donations, merchandise, membership, affiliate marketing, live events, and so much more. There are a whole bunch of options and they all have like unique benefits and considerations that you’ll have to think about based on your own podcast and its audience and its niche. 

[00:01:21] Hendrik Baird: We’ve spoken about this at length in other episodes: audience engagement, it is key to a successful monetization strategy; and you’ve got to get a loyal listener base, you have to consistently deliver high quality content, you’ve got to foster that community through interaction on social media, and by giving it , feedback to your listeners or your listeners giving feedback to you, and you’ve also got to know who your audience is. You’ve got to know their demographics and their preferences. 

[00:01:51] Ethan Baird: Ultimately you also have to create valuable content, especially if you’re trying to monetize it, especially if you’re doing a business podcast. A valuable content is like that complete foundation of successful monetization. You’ve got to explore ways to create content that resonates with your audience, addresses their pain points, provides actionable insights and encourages listener loyalty.

It’s super important to be authentic, demonstrate your expertise and tell the story to attract and retain a listenership. 

[00:02:16] Hendrik Baird: Ah, that’s very important. Tell the story. Skip the ads. Tell the story. Monetizing a podcast, of course, raises some ethical considerations, especially when you’re dealing with sensitive topics or vulnerable audiences.

Take, um, Nicole’s podcast about true crime. That’s very sensitive and she’s gotta be very careful when she talks about, you know, give me some money so I can keep on doing this. And therefore, you have to maintain transparency. You have to be transparent. You have to have integrity and you’ve gotta have respect for your listeners so that you can get their trust.

There are many ethical dilemmas, uh, when it comes to monetizing a podcast. You’ve got a commercial interest, which you’ve got a balance with your audience needs;, and you shouldn’t mislead them or have these intrusive ads. There’s nothing worse for me. Like I’m really engaged with a piece of content and suddenly an ad pops up and I can’t wait desperately for it to click the skip button.

[00:03:15] Ethan Baird: And ultimately this is a long term play, so you’ve got to develop a diverse monetization strategy that has multiple revenue streams and evolves with industry trends. You’ve got to use your audience, get the feedback from them, use the analytics, so you can then optimize the performance of your monetization over time.

There’s also a bunch of other things that you have to think about, such as strategic partnerships, your continuous innovation on the podcast and the long term audience growth, so that you can really get those monetization calls. 

[00:03:44] Hendrik Baird: Over the course of the past few months, Ethan and I have been talking to a great many people and, uh, today we are going to ask them about their monetization challenges, their successes, their methods and so on.

Let’s start with Diogen and he’ll talk about the initial challenges and strategies of monetizing a podcast. 

[00:04:05] Diogen Ntirandekura: My name is Diogenes Ntirandekura. I am the host of the podcast called Consulting Lifestyle. Initially, I started it without a real monetization strategy or business strategy. It was really more about learning and, uh, learning and teaching. It was really just that. Let’s say the biggest challenge was to, uh, mix, uh, working on, uh, on projects for clients and then planning, editing and working on the podcast and then having a family life. I think that was, maybe it was a time organizing my, uh, my time around that. Um, and the consistency, the other parts, uh, would be, uh, now, now it has changed, but, uh, would have been like the monetization really gave a business role to that podcast.

[00:04:51] Ethan Baird: I like that we started with this clip right off the top, because it’s important to know that this is not an easy journey. There will definitely be challenges along the way, and it’s not a fast journey either. But yeah, ultimately, I think it’s given us some insights into the challenges faced by podcasters across the board, not just Diogen, in terms of balancing your various aspects of your life, while trying to get this monetization up and running. It generally just comes back down to strategic planning, time management, to start achieving those goals. 

[00:05:17] Hendrik Baird: Mariette has a wellness focused platform and she’s got a subscription based access for professionals. So let’s find out how she does it. 

[00:05:27] Mariette Snyman: Hi, I’m Mariette Snyman. My podcast series is called Calm, Clear and Helpful.

I’m on my way to making a good living out of it. Let me explain to you, then I will have to explain to you how my platform works. I have readers and listeners who come to the platform for information on various aspects of wellness, and then I have the experts I interview. So, I basically have two audiences in air commas. I have a worldwide audience who come for the information and they have free access and then I have the wellness professionals who co create this content with me and they pay a fee for exposure on my podcast series.

It helps them because it gets them more clients, especially now that we can do online therapy and coaching, et cetera. Uh, they find it very valuable if they offer training to colleagues. That’s something I find people really like doing, is to explain what the training will consist of in a podcast within a wider context and then, uh, offering that to people who would be interested in training. Or some of them have enough clients, but they just want to create general awareness of a specific theme or topic, especially when it’s concerned with mental health. And two other topics I found that are really gaining a lot of traction at this stage in terms of creating awareness are aging well. And the other one is managing menopause. 

It’s a little tricky sometimes to navigate these two audiences in e-commerce. I have to think about who I am dealing with at which stage. And then for instance, I have separate newsletters for each of them.

And then we come to monetizing. I’ve been going now for two and a half years and it has taken me more than two years to get that ball rolling, where professionals approach me and specifically ask to be featured on the podcast and are willing to pay for it. 

[00:07:35] Ethan Baird: I think this is a great example of, uh, also diversifying your monetization.

She has two distinct audiences, in fact, you’ve got the general readers and the listeners seeking the wellness information, and wellness professionals seeking exposure. So she’s monetizing in multiple different ways. 

[00:07:52] Hendrik Baird: And she’s also got a long term strategy. She did say that it took her over two years to establish this monetization model where professionals approach her and pay her to be featured on the podcast. And I wonder what long term strategies you can implement to gradually build monetization opportunities and attract clients to your business or sponsors to come and support your podcast. 

[00:08:16] Natalie King: So my name is Natalie and I’m the introverts coach, but more to the point, I’m actually a business coach.

At the moment, we’re looking at creating a Patreon page and a subscription. So the way that we want to monetize it is you can subscribe to our podcast and we’ll have extras. So with guests, some guests have given us amazing tips and advice and, and what, what I call gold nuggets. So those we will keep for the subscriptions so that you get those extras.

Lenka and I will most probably do a couple of extra episodes just for the subscriptions and we might even bring in guests to do maybe 15 or 20 minutes extra for the subscription. So that’s the way that we look at it. It’s mostly via subscription service, um, to start with, we haven’t looked at, um, ads or product or anything, but that is something that we have vaguely discussed, you know, the usual mugs or something that people can have, but it’s mostly, we want to create a subscription service that people get these nuggets of gold that guests give us and they’ll get some on the free bits, but then you get those extras. So if we have a guest who will, let’s say, talk for an hour, give us great stuff and then we’ll say, can you stay an extra 10 minutes? This is for our subscription members. And then really get some, some of the juicy stuff. Because it is about, we do want the information to go out there. But we also do think it’s, you know, get that extra for subscription. And if you can’t afford it or don’t want a subscription, you still get some good, good value.

[00:10:11] Ethan Baird: I love that we’re talking about Natalie now, because we’re going to be talking about Patreon, which is probably the most famous monetization platform for creators, and especially a lot of podcasters have been able to make an actual full time living purely on the Patreon. 

[00:10:27] Hendrik Baird: I think two, two important points to mention here, Ethan.

The first is that Natalie uses a subscription based monetization program. So that’s what you can do on Patreon. Now, you, you, you get people to subscribe and every month it takes five dollars or whatever off their credit card. It’s some money that disappears without you knowing it. Uh, you know, as a subscriber, uh, and it’s money that comes into her account that helps her grow. To keep the podcast going, there are obviously advantages and also some challenges when you’re working with a podcast or with a subscription based model. And I wonder just how podcasters can effectively market and attract subscribers to their Patreon page. 

[00:11:09] Ethan Baird: So I’m subscribed to two Patreons actually because I love those two podcasts and genuinely what happened for me was that I listened to all 150 episodes of this podcast and I’m like I need more. I’m out of episodes. And then I started paying attention to the fact that they were advertising their page in every episode. And they’re like, Oh, if you subscribe, you get one additional episode per week. And the content is a little bit different to what you would expect from the main feed.

And I think that really underpins the idea that subscription based monetization requires you to give something more to your audience, unless they’re truly a patron in the classical sense where they just love your art and want to give you money. I think nowadays people want a little bit more than that.

So just know that if you’re going to go with the subscription model, it’s going to require more work on your part to make it actually valuable enough for the audience to want to pay for it. 

[00:12:00] Hendrik Baird: And I think Natalie mentioned that, while she’s focusing on providing the content, she is also providing extra value to the subscribers, um, because she also aims to continue offering valuable content to non subscribers.

So you’ve got to balance that free and paid content and strike that balance between providing exclusive content to the subscribers and ensuring that your non subscribers still receive valuable content, so you can maintain that audience engagement and growth. 

[00:12:28] Ethan Baird: Yeah. Nobody wants to feel like they’re listening to the crappy version of the podcast and the real version you have to pay for.

[00:12:33] Hendrik Baird: Nicole also talks about Patreon and here she shares her experiences, uh, how to monetize a podcast using this model. 

[00:12:44] Nicole Engelbrecht: Hi, I’m Nicole Engelbrecht. I am the creator and host of the True Crime South Africa podcast. So Patreon is basically a subscriber platform. So essentially it’s a platform that content creators use to get their really engaged followers to essentially pay them money either each month or once off on an annual subscription for access to exclusive content that’s not available in normal feeds.

And that’s used obviously quite a lot by podcasters and various other types of content creators as well. Um, it’s an American platform, so they do work in dollars and, and some other currencies as well, but not in rands at the moment. And I think I knew that, um, you know, other podcasters across the world used Patreon, but I wasn’t sure what the uptake would be in South Africa.

So I didn’t have high hopes for it. Because of the nature of my content, I was quite hesitant in doing something like that, you know, in monetizing my particular podcast at all, because essentially I’m monetizing people’s stories of tragedy. Um, you know, so that was quite a difficult thing for me to do, but I had to come to sort of the understanding that what I was doing was helping, because it was bringing in leads on cold cases, it was raising awareness, um, you know, it really was doing something good, and my time had to be paid for. So Patreon was one of the first ways that I decided to try and monetize the podcast.

And yeah, like I said, didn’t have terribly high hopes for it. Also didn’t want to overcommit myself. So in the beginning, I knew that I would not have time to do exclusive content. So I said to my listeners, I’m going to be opening a Patreon for the podcast, but all I can offer you at the moment is the knowledge that you’re helping to grow the podcast and a shout out on the podcast each week. And just with those, you know, with those sort of two so called benefits, I got, I got up to 200 Patreons. I started releasing an exclusive episode each week and it’s, it’s grown, sure, exponentially. It’s like, it’s just exploded. Um, and it is now apparently the largest source of income that I have from the podcast.

And I think that was interesting for a few reasons for me, you know, it’s not just South Africans there, but the largest majority of them are South African. I thought that maybe South Africans would have less interest in something like that. Um, you know, that it wouldn’t be a really big thing for South African listeners, but they’ve really been engaged.

Um, and it’s been, it’s something I would definitely recommend doing for, for any podcaster. And start whenever you want to, but don’t overcommit yourself, you know, I’d really recommend doing what I did. Um, and build it slowly. Then when you’ve got time, start offering, um, exclusive content where you can. And build it from there.

[00:16:01] Ethan Baird: It just all keeps coming back down to community, doesn’t it? 

[00:16:04] Hendrik Baird: It’s all about community and engagement. 

[00:16:07] Ethan Baird: Yeah, Nicole has built up a community of people that love and support her, and she has been able to give something valuable to that community that she can then monetize. 

[00:16:16] Hendrik Baird: It’ll take some experimentation and maybe even asking direct questions, sending out questionnaires and, you know, talking to your audience and getting their feedback and finding out.

Now here’s an interesting avenue of monetizing a podcast. Sam has different ways of doing it. 

[00:16:34] Sam Mitchell: Hello everyone. My name is Sam Mitchell and I run the podcast Autism Rocks and Rolls. Through the money I’ve gotten, through our events and through these speaking engagements, that’s our way of making money, but we also make money through sponsorships.

I mean, anyone’s open to sponsor the podcast. I’m not nitpicky. I mean, I have a tattoo parlor who sponsored it, for crying out loud. That’s saying non-pickiness right there. Chocolate shop, Farm Bureau, banks. People out of state, I have someone in Canada actually sponsoring me. So this is definitely growing.

[00:17:10] Ethan Baird: I think there’s all points to the fact that diversifying your income is a really solid strategy. Um, it protects you in the long term. Uh, it just gives you more opportunities in general. 

[00:17:19] Hendrik Baird: Yeah. And I mean, it’s something like events, you know, podcasting events, live events, not really something in this country, in the U S certainly it’s a big thing.

People go to that and they, you know, you can make quite a bit of decent money. So your books, um, branded material, t-shirts, all that sort of stuff, get speaking engagements and then, of course, sponsorships. So, um, attracting sponsors. Also, I think Sam’s experience demonstrates the potential for getting these sponsors from various industries and from various areas.

And certainly a strategy that we should emulate. Carey Green, on the other hand, targets his ideal customer. 

[00:17:54] Carey Green: Yeah, well, I think if we start in reverse order, uh, what you get from it is an opportunity to engage with your ideal clients in a way that you may be able to make a sale from that. Now, obviously applying all the good principles of salesmanship is a part of that, you know, having a good relationship with the person, having a desire for an ongoing relationship rather than a one time conversion.

All of that’s kind of, uh, unspoken under the surface, but as you’re able to set up appointments like that to do a podcast interview or conversation with those people, you’re building a rapport with them and you’re building an engaging sort of an environment where they relax, they let their defenses down, they see you as a peer rather than someone who’s trying to sell them something, because you’re not you’re you’re wanting to extract value from them for your podcast audience. And so they’re able to benefit just from the relationship themselves and then you got an opportunity when it’s all over to inquire about their business, how things are going for them, especially in the areas that they may have mentioned during the conversation where they have struggles. And you can strategically design questions that you’re going to ask them in the interview that will kind of reveal some of those things too.

[00:19:12] Hendrik Baird: Yeah, I think a podcast is a great way to engage with your potential clients hey? You can build rapport and trust. And I think Carey emphasized that, uh, building rapport with the potential client is truly important. That’s the first step, you know, before you can even start talking business with them is, is have a relationship, uh, in some way, and then he’s, he’s strategic questioning also, you know, he designs these questions in the interview to reveal the struggles that the, the client has, and once you can know what the, the pain points are, you can start providing value in, in, in terms of solutions. And by giving that value to your client, you will already start earning their trust and they know that you, you can do what you say you do, and before long they will become paying clients. 

[00:20:01] Ethan Baird: One of the questions we always get is how am I going to get ads in my podcast?

And this is why I was really excited to speak to Christian Swain from Pantheon. Because they run a podcast network and selling ads on podcasts is a large part of the monetization that their podcasts use. So in this clip, you’ll actually see how many listeners you even need in the first place to get an ad on your podcast.

[00:20:24] Christian Swain: Yeah, I’m Christian Swain. I am the CEO, I’m president of Pantheon Media. We are a podcast company that focuses on music related podcast shows. Let me first say that, uh, you know, we do have multiple buckets for, um, for our shows out there. We monetize, we make soup to nuts. Uh, we, we can, you know, we can develop a podcast from a concept, uh, and, uh, produce it, uh, uh, distribute it, uh, monetize, uh, monetize it.

We don’t personally do a lot of marketing ourselves at this point in, uh, in our business, uh. We may in the future, but right now, if you think about it, most people are marketing themselves, so it’s really dependent on them, uh, to do most of the marketing. But, uh, that being said, on the monetization side of things, uh, that is a big factor to join, uh, a network.

You’re a larger pool, uh, it’s like buying insurance. Uh, you know, the more people you have in your pool, uh, the cheaper the insurance is. Um, and so, uh, that’s the case with advertisers in the sense that, you know, they’re actively looking for 10, 20, 30, 000 monthly downloads and really 30 is kind of like the key, uh, for getting attention and getting the advertising, uh, aggregators, the agencies to pay attention to you. Uh, and so that’s hard to do on your own, but, uh, as a network, uh, which does, you know, over 500, 000, uh, monthly downloads, that’s an upsell that you can go to the advertiser. Um, so a lot of times we get approached by, um, a company. Um, you know, they’re asking for some demographic information. Can you give me some stuff? And so, you know, we do, but the next topic is always, well, why don’t we talk to them about upselling the network, which will give them a much larger number of impressions than with a single show. So we usually end up with the, uh, the advertiser or agency and, uh, explain that, you know, with a single show, you’re getting 10, 000, 20, 000 monthly downloads, but with the network, you can get uh, or 500, 000 impressions for, for ads, uh, out there, it’s a, a win win for everybody. 

[00:22:52] Hendrik Baird: And this also goes to the point you raised earlier about selling your audience. That’s exactly what you’re doing here. If you’ve built up a big enough audience for a potential advertiser to put ads in your podcast, then you are selling your audience to that advertiser. And you’ve also got to think about, you know, how ethical that is. And, and does it align with your audience’s needs?

So what did we learn today? We learned that you have to explore various avenues of monetization. You have to think of things like sponsorships, or subscription services, you know, like a Patreon, advertising, events, merchandise. There are different ways and you must find probably more than one, but the ones that work the best for you.

And of course, it’s got to align with your audience. No use advertising something that your audience will never buy. You’ve got to find the synergy there, I think. 

[00:23:43] Ethan Baird: Yeah, and I think ultimately it comes back to building community engagement. You’re not going to be able to monetize your podcast until you have a community.

So foster a strong sense of community among your listeners through engagement strategies, such as listener feedback, social media interaction, and giving them exclusive content. If you have a loyal and engaged audience, they’ll be much more likely to support you directly through your podcast subscription model donations or merchandise.

[00:24:08] Hendrik Baird: That’s right. And ethics play a big role here. You have to be transparent. You have to have integrity in your monetization practices. What is more important, making money or having the listeners trust you and have them satisfied? Short term gain, long term engagement. I think we know clearly which one wins.

[00:24:25] Ethan Baird: If you put an ad for a Bitcoin scam in your podcast and a bunch of people fall for that scam, it’s on you. 

[00:24:31] Hendrik Baird: It’s on you. That’s on you. And then of course, long term sustainability. It’s not just a get rich scheme here. It’s a long term strategy that you’ve got to think of. Um, and therefore you have to diversify your monetization strategies and also continually assess which ones work the best and, you know, grow that and then slowly start scaling up.

And for newbie podcasters, start by focusing on high quality content. I can’t stress that enough. Make sure your content is beautiful, engaging, entertaining, and start building up a loyal listener base, and the money will flow eventually. Right, and if you want to start a podcast, of course, you can come to us.

Ethan and I will gladly help you from, um, figuring out your why to how to monetize the whole thing. And, uh, we call that the Podmaster Startup Program. You can read all about it on our website, Baird.Media.

[00:00:00] Hendrik Baird: Ethan, what is Forest Gump’s password? 

[00:00:05] Ethan Baird: One again? Huh? 

[00:00:06] Hendrik Baird: One forest one. 

[00:00:08] Ethan Baird: Okay. That’s another good one.

Am I warming up to these?

[00:00:15] Hendrik Baird: I love my dad jokes. 

Anyway, our book is not a joke. 

[00:00:21] Ethan Baird: Book is not a joke. 

[00:00:22] Hendrik Baird: Yes, I did in fact write a book, not a joke book, but a book about podcasting.

Become a Podmaster: Everything You Need to Know to Master the Art of Podcasting, and that’s what this podcast series is about.

Kind of practical applications and examples to go with the book because the book just deals with the theory of it, you know, and all the things you need to do.

This podcast is where we spoke to some interesting podcasters and, and people who are in the industry and finding out more about how they do it.

And I must say that some of these interviews are fascinating, eh?

Yeah, no, seriously.

And just on the book, It’s available on Baird Media, on our websites, or virtually every book. It’s on Take a Lot.

It’s on Amazon, it’s on Barnes and Noble, it’s on the Japanese bookshop.

It’s everywhere.

Just go Google it and you’ll find it somewhere or go to your favorite online bookstore and if they don’t have it, let me know and we will put it there.

But it should be there.

We’ve spoken about all the pre-planning you need to do.

We’ve spoken a little bit about the production and managing guests in in previous episodes, and if you haven’t heard that yet, please go and look on our website.

You’ll find them all there.

Today we’re talking to the bit about my expertise, your area of expertise, editing the actual post-production part of the post-production process.

So Ethan, tell us a little bit about your history and why you are the podcast editing master.

[00:01:40] Ethan Baird: Right. Okay.

So I am a audio post producer.

I’m a radio producer by trade, and how I got into it was at the very beginning of university, at the University of Pretoria.

I had already had an interest in music production.

It was something I was fiddling with in high school.

Downloaded some music production software and decided, hey, Tuks FM, the local campus radio station has an intake and is looking for audio producers.

So I was like, okay, easy way to learn about audio production and to maybe meet some people along the way.

Fast forward five years later, I had dropped my degree and had been doing radio production basically full-time as almost a career.

At that point, I was just getting a stipend, but I had become a manager there.

I had won a radio award, African radio award for my production, and this really became the focus of my kind of whole career going forward after University Hendrick and I joined an online radio station where I did a lot of things, but a lot of production and a lot of production training.

After the online radio station, I eventually did freelance podcast production for clients in America and Canada, and then we started Baird Media, which is a podcast and production company.

About a year into Baird Media, I got a really massive opportunity.

To be the technical producer for Breakfast with Bartin Bester 0n Jacaranda FM.

It’s a commercial radio station with over 1.2 million listeners, and I spend my very early mornings from about 5:00 AM till about 11:00 AM producing a breakfast radio show every single day.

So that’s high pressure work, isn’t it?

It’s insane.

It really is a job that I think you have to have a very specific personality for. My margins are measured in seconds.

Martin will decide, Hey, we’re gonna do this.

You have 30 seconds and I’m gonna go live, and then I just have to make something happen.

So my job entails sourcing content for the show, deciding who goes on air editing, people’s voice notes, producing promos, producing anything that could potentially feasibly happen from a production perspective on this radio show.

So that’s broadly where I come from as an editor. 

[00:03:53] Hendrik Baird: So having edited so many podcast episodes, what are the biggest mistakes you see people make when they record podcasts? 

[00:04:02] Ethan Baird: I’m gonna talk about this mostly from a technical perspective.

The biggest mistake that I see people make is that they forget that it’s a prerecorded medium.

And what I mean by this is sometimes there’ll be an issue that occurs during a recording.

Someone’s microphone is at the wrong volume.

There’s a dog barking in the background.

Any number of things can happen and many podcasters will just kind of gloss over this and try to continue.

Instead of just taking a second to stop, go back and start the sentence again.

We, throughout the recording sessions of this podcast have taken many, many times.

I see it as we speak right now. I’m gonna leave this in intentionally. T

his is the kind of stuff that needs to be cut out, right?

Yeah.

When you don’t quite have your words together and you really need to just take a second and figure out what you wanna say.

So the biggest tip I would give to anybody is, remember, it’s all pre-recorded.

You can always stop and re-record something if there’s a mistake, because this leads me to my second biggest tip.

Editors are not miracle workers.

If it’s bad going in, it is very difficult to make it good coming out.

So that’s what we say in the book, garbage in Garbage Out.

1000%.

Editors can do a lot.

They can cut things out, they can shift things around, they can apply effects, but there are many things that just cannot be fixed.

If you’re recording with one microphone and you’re talking over each other, there’s no way to pull that apart.

If there’s massive background noise and there’s a giant fan on the background.

No amount of effect is going to make that sound okay.

As you experienced when you had rain during one of your Hypnosis Works podcast recording, it did. It 

[00:05:40] Hendrik Baird: It was a tin roof and the rain came pouring down and we had limited time to record and we had to finish and it was like, it’s impossible to fix afterwards.

You just can’t hear anything.

Remember when we sent our reporter, when we were at  the online radio station, to an event and she came back and everything she had recorded was unusable.

There was some, some technical issue with the sound.

It was just, it’s a whole weekend of work just down the toilet because it was unusable.

[00:06:05] Ethan Baird: So editors are not miracle workers, you really can’t fix that stuff.

Even the most highly qualified sound engineer in the world will still just tell you, re-record it. And then this brings me to my third tip, which is, Listen back to your content.

After we recorded the very first episode of this, we made sure that the audio sounds reasonable.

You, you have to make sure that things actually sound right, especially if you’re doing lots of recordings and you aren’t necessarily able to monitor them.

So, you know, use headphones. 

[00:06:37] Hendrik Baird: We should, we’re not using headphones as we speak, but we are looking at the audio as it is recording and checking the levels so we have a fair idea of what’s going on there.

[00:06:44] Ethan Baird: Those are the main steps.

Remember that it’s pre-recorded.

You can always go back and change something in the recording.

Editors are not miracle workers, if there’s a problem, you likely can’t fix it and it’s, it’s, it’s going to be very hard to fix it and listen to your recordings before you finish it up.

You don’t want to have to re-record.

[00:07:03] Hendrik Baird: I think when you are a startup or a newbie, podcaster, editing is the thing that seems completely overwhelming.

And I mean, we’ve had experience with people on our mentoring programs that said, look, I’m not even interested  in the editing part of it.

I want somebody else to do it.

Is it a skill that you can learn?

And at what point do you give that job to some professional like yourself and go like, look, here’s the audio, please can you order, edit it for me?

[00:07:28] Ethan Baird: So yeah, editing is definitely a very learnable skill, especially in the age we live in now, there are a tremendous amount of resources out there.

There is free software, and ultimately the basics of editing are not that hard. It’s just time consuming. I always tell people, if you can edit a Microsoft Word document, you can edit a piece of audio.

It’s the exact same skillset. You highlight things, you delete them, you copy things, you paste things. Why would you use a professional? However, the reality is that if you’re not inclined to it, Editing is a very tedious process. It takes a long time to do properly. 

[00:08:06] Hendrik Baird: That being said, I’ve seen editors like yourself and like our other editor who does it in record time.

You like, you know, it’s like half an hour later here it comes back and it’s all polished and done. Like, how 

[00:08:17] Ethan Baird: the hell did you do that? That’s a function of hundreds of hours of practice.

So for example, we just taught the virtual assistant Eloise, who is working with our podcaster, Barbara from our most recent mentoring program, how to do the very basics of editing.

I gave her a very broad overview and she edited her very first clip, 10 minute long podcast recording and all that she wanted to do was just cut out some ums and ahs.

Tightened it up a bit.

She eventually took a 10 minute recording and made, made it an eight and a half minute recording.

So she cut out a fair amount of stuff.

It took her three hours to do.

For 10 minutes of audio.

Once you’ve gotten really, really experienced with editing, it maybe will start taking about two times the length of the audio to edit.

So if it’s an hour long recording, it’ll take you two hours to do a very basic edit where you just cutting out major issues and you’re not doing much else.

[00:09:08] Hendrik Baird: Just for you to take, how long’s it gonna take you to edit our little, I keep saying little is not that little. 

[00:09:12] Ethan Baird: This one’s gonna take a while cause this is not an editing job anymore.

We’ve moved from editing to full scale production.

Editing is purely what it sounds like.

You’re taking a piece of audio and you’re trimming out the fat.

What I’m going to have to do with these podcast episodes is full scale production where I’m taking the audio, editing it first.

So cropping it down to, I think what the essentials are, cutting out things that I don’t want in it.

Then I’m going to have to include all the clips that we’ve referenced throughout the, the podcast, all the different interview clips.

Those all had to be edited in individually itself, categorized, labeled, and then put into the session.

Then I’m going to put in music, rearrange some content because some of the stuff you recorded after recording other things and you realized the flow wasn’t a hundred percent correct.

So there’s a lot of rearranging work that has to happen.

And then there’s the final aspect, which is why you truly do need a professional, which is the audio mixing and mastering aspect.

It’s all good and well, your podcast edited you sound good.

Now your intro music goes and it’s five times the volume of your voice.

I refer that, how’d you make your ears bleed very quickly?

Yes, and it’s actually honestly an unethical thing to do unintentionally because you can literally damage people’s ears.

So the audio mixing and mastering process involves making sure that all the volumes and levels are at a reasonable place.

Making sure that they are up to industry standards so that your podcast doesn’t sound way softer than somebody else’s.

It’s doing things like reducing some background noise, putting some what you call equalization, compression, other sound effects to make your voice sound a little warmer, a little cleaner.

These kinds of things.

Take your podcast from a crappy zoom recording into something that truly sounds professional.

So answer the question right at the beginning.

Why would you want to use a professional instead of doing all of this yourself?

Firstly, it’s a time consuming process that requires expertise.

So if you want to get into editing, you’re gonna spend a lot of time doing research and practicing.

You might not have that time or the inclination to do it.

Professionals also have developed a feel for editing.

So you have to figure out when do I trim some of the gaps between the sentences and when do I leave them in?

What sentences are completely superfluous to this conversation and what’s actually contributing?

So there’s also that element of curating your content and polishing it.

So trimming not just the very obvious issues, but some things that interrupt the actual flow of the podcast.

And then finally, there’s the really technical stuff.

The mixing and mastering the sound engineering aspect, which we will take your podcast from something that is unmixed and potentially unlistenable to a really pleasant listening experience.

[00:11:57] Hendrik Baird: Kevin from Solid Gold Studios has some inputs as to why you should use a professional. 

[00:12:02] Gavin Kennedy: It’s useful to draw a parallel perhaps.

Just cuz you got Photoshop doesn’t mean you can become an ad agency and, and do full page ads that go into the Sunday Times.

Having a technical ability to do something is not the same as.

Having the skillset required for the nuances and the subtleties and the, and the real thing that’s happening.

You know, it’s a very good example of the Dunning Kruger effect.

The less you know, the more you think you know.

So just because you’ve got audacity on your computer and you’ve got a webcam, you think you can make a podcast?

Technically, you’re a hundred percent correct, but if you haven’t got the framework, if you don’t know why you’re making the podcast, if you don’t know the purpose and what the real metrics of success are, you’re going to be. Bouncing around in the dock, making the wrong thing for a while.

It’s not to say that there’s no value in in learning that way, but if you’re a business and you’re selling a product X, you’ve got an ad agency, you’ve got a billboard, you’ve got campaigns, you’ve got a website, you’ve got a marketing strategy, you’ve got all these things in place, it makes no sense to then tag onto that.

Well, let’s make a podcast that sounds completely amateurish, doesn’t tie into our brand identity and sounds like crap.

It just doesn’t make any sense just because you can do it.

[00:13:05] Ethan Baird:  And then we also spoke to Moshe.

He is someone who was a video producer and got into podcast production semi recently, and he has had his own journey developing as a podcast editor and figuring out his own workflow.

[00:13:20] Moshe Singer: My name is Moshe Singer and I’m a multimedia content editor, and that.

Broadly also involves podcast editing. The project that I’ve been mainly working on is, it’s called the Reclaiming Identity Podcast, and the organization who run this project, they contacted me to do another project for them, another video edit, like to do a video for them.

It was a slide animation south box style kind of animation.

And I really love the work that they do.

And then they asked me if I’d be interested in, you know, editing a podcast for them.

I said, I’d never done it before, but I’m, I’m keen to try.

And they gave me the opportunity and thank God I knocked it out the park.

Honestly, it’s been a confidence booster.

It really has.

You know, I always, I’m always editing the audio on my videos.

Always, always, always, always.

But when, when you start just doing the audio, you kind of get into a different zone because it’s no longer visual.

It does.

You don’t have those visual cues when you’re editing.

You can’t miss a between you when you’re editing audio.

You have to listen so carefully to everything and to some degree it can be a little bit of work cause you don’t also have that luxury to visual cue.

You know, everything.

But I must say it’s, it’s, it’s been a huge confidence booster in terms of music production as well, because I’ve kind of also got into music mixing in the last years as well.

Kind of like simultaneously.

So I mean, going from like just sound editing, which is, you know, like three, four tracks.

You’ve got the music, the audio, the, the interview, and then a couple of sound effects to mixing a song.

You’ve got like 30 tracks. And it kind of, it’s, it’s, yeah, it’s been a lack of confidence.

[00:15:07] Ethan Baird: Now we’re gonna get to a topic that’s also very much driven by your own taste and the strategy of your podcast, which is the pre-produced elements of your podcast. Billboards being an example of this. 

[00:15:19] Hendrik Baird: Every podcast has its own identity, isn’t it?

And your billboards, the kind of music you use,  the way you introduce it, the way  you sum it up at the end.

That’s part of that identity, isn’t it?

[00:15:30] Ethan Baird:  Yeah. It’s like your sonic, your audio branding.

You can use your music and any other pre-produced elements to.

Convey some kind of a feeling and emotion that you might not be able to get across with just your voice. 

[00:15:43] Hendrik Baird: So in the old days, now, I’m gonna give away my age here, but in the old days we had a radio station called Springbok Radio and we, we still reminisce about it and miss it and, and I think podcasting to some degree can fill that gap.

But if you Google it, you’ll find  some clips and some programs from there.

But all those programs on Springbok radio had a very specific way of starting and ending and you knew exactly what you were listening to, whether it was the Jet Jungle Show or the Chappy Chipmunk Club or Forces’ Favorites or whatever the show was.

So Maaak Mens with Esme and Jan, it had very specifically pre-produced ways, music wording and and so on.

And I think podcasts to some degree use that.

But I’ve also seen a lot of podcasts that sort of go off that sort of radio approach to it.

I mean, I’ve listened to podcasts that only 10 minutes in, then they do their little intro, you know, their billboard.

So there are very many ways that you can package this and make it sound unique.

[00:16:39] Ethan Baird: Yeah, and I’ll say that this is really up to your own taste and up to the strategy of your podcast, your capacity for production.

Cause it all adds extra lead time to getting your episode actually out there.

There’s some people who record a podcast, they press record, they press stop, they cut out the beginning and the end, and they publish it.

And there’s people who have made successful podcasts like that, but I believe that if you want to cut through, you know, an an added level of polish and personality really does help.

So ultimately, it’s up to you to figure out what exactly that looks like for your podcast.

And this is one of those things where, I wouldn’t say that there are hard and fast rules, but there are real benefits of implementing some of this stuff.

So, for example, an intro and outro billboard could save you a lot of time by just creating some table setting about what people are listening to.

Sometimes you’ll get into a podcast and you don’t quite understand what it is that we are listening to or where are we going with this.

So you can use your intro to really tell people, okay, this is who we are.

This is what we stand for and this is what you’re gonna listen to.

And these exact same production elements can be used to create calls to action.

So at the very end of your podcast, you could have a call to action to your website.

You could tell people about exciting promotions that you have going on.

All just gives you more opportunity to focus on the content when you’re recording instead of worrying about all the other administrative tasks that you have to kind of get through as well in the course of your podcast.

It also creates that sense of familiarity, which people like, you know?

[00:18:06] Hendrik Baird:  When you listen to the same thing, it’s like watching a sitcom.

You know, there’s certain things are gonna happen.

There’s a certain structure to, it’s a way it starts with the way it ends.

I also think podcast, a lot of the most interesting ones I’ve listened to have had a really strong hook in the beginning.

It doesn’t start with a billboard, starts with some interesting piece of content, like,

What the hell is going on here? I want to listen more. And then we get into what is this about?

And then we get into the, the meat of things. 

[00:18:34] Ethan Baird: Yeah. I mean, that’s why we use the dad jokes, right?

That’s exactly why you decided et’s do a really lame joke. At the very beginning of each script, of each episode, it says lame joke, and it’s just to make it a little bit more fun.

Because ultimately, as you know, this podcast is part of our content marketing strategy.

We’re using it to try sell people books and get them to use our services.

But if everything is always an ad, if the beginning of your podcast is always just an advert, people will eventually stop listening.

[00:19:02] Hendrik Baird:  It’s like, I’m not promoting the book every time we start this podcast. Not at the very beginning. 

[00:19:06] Ethan Baird: No. We first hook them with the joke, something.

And then we talk about the book right at the beginning because they might not listen to the end.

And then we get into interesting content.

I think it’s completely fair.

To have this advertorial, this advertising elements in your podcast.

But if your hook, the very beginning of your episode is an advert, you’re setting a weird tone. 

[00:19:25] Hendrik Baird: Look, I mean, we are all so tired of adverts and you know, strictly produced adverts.

It’s things people want to click away from.

Like when I open up a YouTube video and it’s a bloody ad, I can’t wait to press skip ad and yeah, so making the ad part of our content is different to having a strictly preproduced ad for the book.

For instance, how important is it to have a musical element?

Do you need it at all or can you get away without it?

And if you do have it, what role does it play? 

[00:19:54] Ethan Baird: There’s two aspects here.

The billboards will have likely have music, and I think that’s kind of expected that, that that’s not out of the norm, and that’s usually quite short.

So you can definitely use music in your billboards to say something about your show.

I personally don’t like podcasts that have music the whole time.

Yeah, I know that would become boring, that it annoys me and it feels like a crutch personally to me, to have music throughout your podcast.

We call that bed music. 

Look, I think bed music can work well in short doses, which is why in radio bed music works amazing.

Yeah, because your link is two, three minutes and you’re up.

So it sets the tone.

It can maybe make the piece, feel a little bit funnier, more sad.

It adds a bit of emotion to it.

And usually the bed music isn’t super loud either, so you’ll start it a little bit louder and then you go down and keep it down.

However, you’re doing an hour long podcast episode and you have some beat playing the entire time, it will eventually start to get to people.

It’ll distract from the content.

But I think that musical bridges are an incredible way to link topics together.

Especially if you’re doing something like what we are doing, where we are having.

Conversations interspersed with interview clips.

Perhaps we hard cut to a second piece of the conversation a little bit later and it doesn’t quite make sense to go right from this one to that one.

But a few seconds of music can really bridge it all together.

And I think if you listen to any of the Gimlet podcasts or the documentary style podcasts in general, they do really well with that.

They just have like, 15 seconds of some music. 

[00:21:32] Hendrik Baird: It also gives the listener a time to just sort of process what they’ve heard, give you a little breather and something new is coming.

So you have that expectation of, okay, let me concentrate again.

Because I mean, we all have short concentration spans.

If we can concentrate for 15 seconds, that’s a long time.

So we need those little musical interludes just to give us a break and a breather and reset and, and get our brains to, to concentrate again. 

[00:21:56] Ethan Baird: I will say though, it’s not necessary whatsoever.

There are many podcasts who use no music ever, ever, ever.

Like even the intro might not have music.

And if the content’s compelling, the content’s compelling.

But I would just say maybe don’t do it out throughout the whole episode.

Use its sparingly and effectively.

Strategically.

Quick question people will usually have is, okay, where do I get this music from?

This might be obvious to a lot of you, but you cannot use copyrighted music.

I’m saying this because it’s a question I get a weird amount of time. 

[00:22:26] Hendrik Baird: I want to use Tina Turner because she’s now deceased, and I want to use Simply the Best.

[00:22:30] Ethan Baird: If you wanna pay a hundred thousand dollars to license that song, by all means. The places you’d get it from are from websites that you can license music from for cheap.

There’s a lot of those out there. Google Royalty free music, and you’ll find them royalty free doesn’t mean you don’t have to pay.

It means that you don’t have to pay royalties, so you can license it once and then use it in perpetuity.

It’s usually a couple of dollars.

Then there’s another option you could do.

It’s called public domain music.

Public domain means it’s been around longer than 50 years, or someone intentionally put it into the public domain.

You’re free to use it.

No problem.

The third option is really compelling, but it’s only if you’re a very specific person.

If you are a musician, it’s an amazing way, like what Kelsey did.

Using your own music and your podcast as a way to promote yourself?  

[00:23:18] Kelsey Buchalter: Well, the Intro and Outro are little original instrumentals that I have written, I suppose.

And yeah, I’ve been writing and singing music my whole life.

And the music that I’ve written so far is very much, I mean, usually it’s just me and the piano accompanying myself while singing.

Sometimes my older brother will, he’s an amazing guitarist, so sometimes he’ll come in with an acoustic guitar here and there.

As of yet, I’ve only shared one original song on an episode with my brother, which was pretty cool.

Haven’t really shared much else.

Maybe you’ve given me a few ideas to actually do more of that.

Music has been an emotional outlet for me since I was probably born.

[00:23:56] Hendrik Baird:  Okay, so that takes care of music and your billboards and all those sort of things.

So is there value in, once you’ve now produced your, your podcast, you’ve edited, you’ve put it together, do you listen to it, or you just put it out there and hope for the best?

[00:24:10] Ethan Baird: You have to listen to your podcast to improve.

There is just no way around it if you’re not listening to your own content.

Why would anybody else listen to it? 

So with us, what will happen is after this, for the next few weeks, I’ll be producing these episodes. 

I’m gonna give them to you to listen to and give me feedback, and then I’m going to improve and change and then finally get to the final product that we both happy with.

If you were just to blindly trust it with me and then I publish it, there’s not a second set of years in it.

There might be something that we wanted to cut out that we didn’t know, and again, how are you going to improve?

So ultimately, you have to work on improving your content, like what Benji’s gonna talk about.

[00:24:51] Benji Block: Now each person’s wired slightly differently.

So for some, starting a podcast sounds so scary.

So if you are a new podcaster, it may take you taking that leap first and then starting to build as you go.

For others, you’re in it just enough.

You’re a relatively new podcaster.

Maybe you’re five to 10 episodes in, and now you’re getting into the real game.

You’re realizing, oh, it’s more tough than I thought it would be to find guests for a show.

It’s more tough than I thought it would be to be an engaging host.

There’s a lot of promo that has to happen on the back end of a podcast.

Our audience isn’t growing, so if you’re in that space, really starting to listen to the voices of, even if it’s only a few people telling you what they like about your episodes, really double down.

Try to get in as many conversations where you can ask follow-up questions as possible.

If you can book a 15 to 30 minute meeting with a listener of your show and you can say, Hey, you told me like.

The last episode was great.

Can you like tell me specifically what did you like about that episode?

Was there something I did that I could double down on?

Was there a topic or a question I could have asked that I can go find another guest and we could do a whole episode on something you, you know, really listening to your audience specifically when they fall in the, the demographic of who you hope listens to that show more so in our case, like I mentioned, we talked specifically when we have guests on to CMOs, we want the C-Suite marketer.

If that executive level marketer messages me on LinkedIn, you better believe I’m gonna ask 10 follow questions to understand what they loved about the last episode.

And as often as you can do that, that’s gonna help you niche down.

I think niching down is a, that’s the advice you’ll probably hear the most often, but is also really murky.

We don’t actually know how to niche down all the time, and I think most of it comes from listening to.

People that listen to your show, which I know sounds a little meta, but the more questions you can ask, you’re gonna gain a sense of clarity of future topics, future guests, maybe even redefining your description.

Some of these like little things that just go into a podcast, the more that you you talk to people that, that are listening, it’s, it’s gonna help you do that better. 

[00:27:04] Ethan Baird: And look, listening to your own voice is not like the most fun thing in the world.

Nobody really enjoys it unless you’ve liked done a lot of voiceovers and you’re very used to it.

So that is one of the reasons people tend to not want to listen to their podcast, but ultimately, like what Logan’s going to explain, you’ve got to listen to your show.  

[00:27:20] Logan: Yeah, it’s definitely a challenge. Cause like, you know, a lot of time I’ll be sitting there, I’ll be like, you’ll film the podcast, everything.

And then afterwards I’m going, oh my gosh, look dude, why did you do that?

Like, oh my gosh, you made so many mistakes.

Oh my gosh. Why did you do that?

Hendrik Baird: So at drama school, they said to us, I’m gonna give you a note. You can either take the note or you can ignore it. It’s up to you. But here’s the note. 

[00:27:47] Ethan Baird: Yeah. You need to get notes.

Ultimately, there’s always something that you doing that you aren’t even realizing is a problem.

I have crutch words.

Everybody has crutch words.

Get other people to listen to your show, listen back to your show with the critical, yeah.

Maybe write some notes, internalize it, and take it for the next episode. 

[00:28:06] Hendrik Baird: So what did we learn today?

That you can become an editor if you really put your mind to it and, and edit your own sound.

Or you can use the services of a professional like this man sitting here next to me, Ethan, who’s a consummate professional and podcast editor, and you know, it’s kind of services that we do provide.

So if you do get stuck with that, we’ll give us a shout.

We’ve also learned about music and how to use music and to set the mood and the tone of your show, how to use it as bridges.

And yeah, if you want to learn anything more about podcasting, we’ll get my book.

It’s called Become a Podcastmaster.

It’s available on our website, Baird.Media, or wherever you buy books online.

And we do have a six week mentorship program.

So if you do want to start a podcast, and you’re not quite sure how to do it, we will take you through it step by step, holding your hand, and practically help you to produce your first episode, plan your series and do all the other bits and pieces that is required for these or are that are required, is required. 

[00:29:07] Ethan Baird: Bits and pieces, bits and pieces that are required.

[00:29:10] Hendrik Baird: Look at us figuring out language patterns at the same time to produce your podcast.

So go to our website, baird.media, all the information is there.

[00:00:00] Hendrik Baird:  Ethan, what do you call three average white dudes? 

[00:00:03] Ethan Baird: Yeah? 

[00:00:04] Hendrik Baird: A podcast. 

[00:00:05] Ethan Baird: Okay. Okay.

That was actually funny.

[00:00:13] Hendrik Baird: So you’ve got two average white dudes making a podcast, and we’re from Baird Media, Ethan and Hendrik.

And we talking about podcasting and how to make a podcast and it, it goes with a book, “Become a Podcast Master: everything You Need to Know to Master the Art of Podcasting.”

This is the practical.

Let’s talk to the experts and get their opinions to go with a theory of the book.

And then of course, you can book a six week mentorship program with us.

If you are ready to start your podcast but don’t have a clue what to do, we will physically help you.

Practically to do everything you need to do to produce at least one episode and have your series planned and do everything else that a podcast requires, which is quite a lot of work.

People underestimate it. 

[00:00:56] Ethan Baird: Yep. So in today’s episode, we are going to talk about guest coordination. 

[00:01:03] Hendrik Baird: So a lot of podcasts use guests.

I mean, I’ve listened to podcasts that don’t have guests like panel discussions or things like that, but, if you are in business and you’re using it for a network tool, as we spoke about in a previous episode, then guests are gonna be important and, and how to manage those guests and how to get the most value out of them certainly is something we need to talk about.

[00:01:23] Ethan Baird: Yeah, because I don’t think that’s even, that we recording this podcast got enough value out of our guests. Yet? 

[00:01:31] Hendrik Baird: Not yet. No. 

[00:01:32] Ethan Baird: Not in comparison to the people that we’ve spoken to, at least. 

[00:01:35] Hendrik Baird: Well, the people we’ve spoken to are, you know, some of them are really high quality guests, and I would love to speak to them again.

I just want to like, sit at their feet and worship them and go like, tell me everything.

But you can’t do that with somebody.

Hey, you’ve got a limited time period, but you spend with them.

So you’ve gotta be strategical, also in, in how you approach your guests and how you, uh, you know, interview them. 

[00:01:56] Dan Sanchez: My name’s Dan Sanchez.

My friends call me Danchez.

I’m obsessed with marketing.

I generally advise people, especially if you’re just starting your podcast, you need to have a few episodes in, in the hopper first.

I mean, you don’t.

You probably could, if you’re really scared, just start doing outreach.

But to have like three episodes in there, probably just solo episodes. 

First episode is why are you starting this podcast?

Second episode, on something that you think will be significant for the audience.

Third episode, talk about where you want to take this podcast.

You know, like in the future what you’re hoping it becomes, and then just say like,

Hey, I’m, I’m gonna reference this episode in the future, I’ll be calling back to episode three, right?

So just keep it simple.

Make them like five, six minute episodes and just throw something down and then just start doing outreach.

The best thing I like to do is find people who are active on social and then shoot them a DM.

The key is that DM.

Needs to be like how you would write it to a text message to a friend.

If it’s more than three sentences, it’s too freaking long.

Like make it casual.

Don’t send them a link to your podcast.

They’ll ask for it if they want it.

Be like, “Hi Ethan, I noticed you talked a lot about X and I love what you had to say about y.

I have a podcast on that topic.

Would you like to be a guest?”

It’s literally that simple.

Like just take the exact words that I just said, go rewind it back.

Take the exact words, write it out, and then just do that with five people and just replace their name and some of the details, right?

And then just send that out.

Some people will ghost you.

Fine.

I’ve done this hundreds of times now, and I can count on one hand the amount of people that said no.

And it’s usually not like a hard “no”, it’s a “not right now”, no.

I don’t think I’ve gotten one hard.

No, but I will say that I was representing a show with a lot of downloads, so that was a little easier for me probably reaching out to a few people that probably we would’ve said no if it was a new show.

But I will tell you that like 90% of people that I reached out to will probably say yes to you too.

Only people that are being asked like five to 10 times a day to be on a podcast.

Those people will say no because they’re all, and then they’re just gonna vet it down to the podcast with the most reach.

But I promise those people are incredibly rare.

So you, you like an author of a book or of a channel, if they’re small, like I have 25,000 followers on LinkedIn.

I only get reached out to speak on podcasts maybe like once a week, every other week.

You have to be pretty, pretty big in order to be saying no to podcasts.

So most people are gonna say yes or they won’t say anything at all.

So you just gotta get over the fear and start reaching out.

It also kills your reluctance to start.

A lot of people procrastinate with getting started with podcasts.

So what I tell the new podcasters is, Hey, just start sending out requests and then you have to fulfill it.

You gotta go and do it now you gotta schedule it because they’ve said yes. A

nd now you gotta actually go through with it.

And you have the pressure to actually, you know, finish editing it if you edit it at all, and then publishing it, because now you have expectations from Joe Schmo that you just interviewed.

So if you want to beat procrastination, just start sending out those separate messages and send out like 30 of them and then bam.

You’re gonna have a podcast cause now the pressure is on. 

[00:05:08] Ethan Baird: I recently was in a Zoom virtual coffee chat with a podcaster who was an episode 80 over her podcast and she says, I still don’t feel ready to reach out to this author that I admire.

And I was like, he’s not gonna say no, he’s not gonna say no because to her, this author is a massive celebrity and he’s a big author.

It’s not like at the very top of their game.

It’s not the interviewing, Tim Robbins or whatever, but it’s an author with a big following, especially in that specific sphere that she’s in.

And what I was telling her, and what I want to communicate to you, the listener, is that you would be shocked, truly shocked at how many people will say yes to an interview. 

[00:05:48] Hendrik Baird: I’ve got a podcast called Hypnosis Works.

I did about 30 episodes and it’s, it’s on hiatus at the moment.

I’m thinking of doing a few more.

The reason I started that podcast was I was a little bit lost as a hypnotherapist.

Didn’t really know how to restart my practice after having abandoned it for a while, and I thought, well, let me just talk to other hypnotherapist and find out what they do in their practices and you know what I can learn from them and maybe that would help me to, to get back into my hypnotherapy practice.

I know quite a few people in the hypnotherapy circles here in South Africa and I first of all approached them and I used Facebook really to, to find them if I weren’t connected to them already.

And just sent them a little, uh, message going like, look, I’m doing a podcast.

We want to talk about ABCD&F.

This is kind of the general structure that, that, that I’m planning for this thing.

Would you like to be a guest on my podcast?

And you know, like 80% of them said yes. I, I actually had to fend people off.

And then eventually I thought, okay, I’ve got a few South Africans in the can.

Let me see if I can talk to some people outside of South Africa.

And that was as easy as going to Facebook and putting hypnotherapist into the search bar, finding these people, sending them friend requests, and then my little message going, it was a standard thing that I did.

You know, this is my podcast.

This is what it’s about.

Want to talk about how you started, what things you specialize in, how you market yourselves, how the community disease, hypnosis, they, those sort of general things.

And I spoke to people in Wales.

I spoke to people in the U.S.

I spoke to people in Ireland and all over the place.

And it was a really, really interesting experience because these people were so forthcoming, ready to share their information with me freely with no expectations of getting anything back.

What I did learn in the process is to have a kind of a release form. 

[00:07:43] Ethan Baird: Yes. 

[00:07:43] Hendrik Baird: Something I think that we need to talk about a little bit. 

[00:07:45] Ethan Baird: So I think this is a great segue because I want to talk about what we can do better going forward.

With guest coordination and managing guests, so that we can hold ourselves accountable on this podcast.

And I’ve put it out for the public to hear.

So if we don’t do it, what are we doing?

And also, I think we did really well with this first batch.

However, having spoken to some of these podcasters, I realized that there’s a lot more that we should be doing.

The first thing, even before the interview is the pre-chat.

[00:08:15] Hendrik Baird: Now, this is something we’ve never done before and I’ve always thought like, why would you need a pre-chat? Why do you need a pre-chat? 

[00:08:22] Ethan Baird: Yeah. So when you just go into an interview cold, you have to spend the first few minutes of that interview, warming it up, right?

And you don’t quite necessarily know what this person’s personality is, what they actually want to talk about.

So you may end up wasting a little bit of time in the actual interview doing things that you could have handled before.

So what I’m suggesting we do going forward is having a 30 minute pre-chat a week, even before the podcast episode that we record, or the interview so that we can first get a rapport with them and figure out what are they passionate about.

Make sure that they’re covering something unique and interesting that hasn’t been covered by other guests, because many times people have similar things to talk about.

And then also to set some expectations about what needs to happen with this podcast, you know?

If we say to them, Hey, listen, okay, Benji, I’m chatting to you now, what are you gonna chat about?

Okay, cool.

Maybe cover something slightly different because you’ve already had someone who said that.

And you know, when the podcast releases, how do you want me to send this to you?

Strategize with them. 

[00:09:29] Hendrik Baird: Mm. 

[00:09:29] Ethan Baird: To get the best possible results so that by the time we actually in the interview A, we’re, we’re flying through the questions cause we know exactly where we’re going.

B, we don’t have to build reports are already done.

And C, the minute that podcast interview ends, when we stop the record button, we know exactly what’s going to happen. And as you said, release forms. 

[00:09:48] Hendrik Baird: Mm-hmm. 

[00:09:49] Ethan Baird: Documentation, all of those things are handled 

[00:09:51] Hendrik Baird: a week or two before the time. I, I think that’s a really good idea and it’s, yes, like I said, I didn’t really understand the value of it.

I just wanted to jump in, but then when we were recording for this specific podcast, we had to explain to people, look, it’s not an interview, we gotta not interview you and put just the interview out.

We are going to do it in a certain way.

We’re gonna chat and we are gonna play some clips.

That are relevant to, to what we are talking about, and people are like, oh, okay. I thought it was gonna be an interview.

And that’s something we could have covered in the pre-chat. It’s the same with the Hypnosis podcast that I did is a lot of people were so nervous because they’ve never been interviewed ever in their lives before.

They just so jittery that they couldn’t get the words out.

And having that, half an hour or so just to put them at their ease and give them some little experience of what it is like.

I mean, talking to podcasts is different to talking to, you know, a man on the street.

It’s never been, it’s like, uh, when you, you have a radio interview and you’ve never been on radio.

[00:10:45] Ethan Baird: They’re nervous.

They’re very nervous. Yeah. 

[00:10:49] Hendrik Baird: As I should be, I get, as a professional, I get very nervous sometimes doing these things.

So the, the pre-chat seems to be, a valuable tool and, and yeah, I agree with you, it’s something we’ll do further, but the release form also for me is important because I had that one experience with hypnosis work.

[00:11:04] Ethan Baird: Oh yeah. I was wondering if you gotta talk about this. 

[00:11:05] Hendrik Baird: Yeah. And of course I have to talk about that because I do all the work.

I arranged the guests, I do the recordings, I did all the editing, I did the intros and outros and recorded all of that. I designed all the graphics, I did all of the work, posting it, sending it up, and then this person took my work, my intellectual property, took out all my branding, rebranded it for himself or herself themself, and posted it on their platform as if it was their product.

And I was like, hang on, you’re, you’re stealing my work.

How can you do that?

No, it didn’t understand.

It was gonna work like this and I should have explained it better and you know, Yeah. Okay.

Maybe I should have, and that’s what I learned, that you need some sort of documentation that somebody agrees to that this is the, the terms and conditions of you participating in this event.

[00:11:57] Ethan Baird: I mean, also legally in our country and in many other countries, we’ve got the, well, that’s, 

[00:12:01] Hendrik Baird: it’s, that’s copyright infringement.

Yeah. I can’t just take my stuff.

Like, I can’t just take music and say, oh, no, I, I made this.

No, it’s Beyonce’s music. 

[00:12:08] Ethan Baird: Yeah. And, and there’s things like the POPI Act and everything as well, where you’ve gotta be really sensitive about people’s data.

Like this is something that’s going to live on the internet for years, forever, right?

So if, if you record something now and you don’t have all products in a row, if someone comes and says, Hey, I didn’t actually want you to publish. X, Y, and Z out of the blue, or you got their email address from them and maybe they actually didn’t want you to have that email address.

You could get into serious issues.

And then just quickly circling back to, you know, this experience you had, I’ve had people ask me, okay, cool.

So when I have the podcast, I’m just gonna download it and publish it as well.

Right.

I’m like, No, no, that’s, but it’s a clearly disconnect about what is a podcast some people have never listened to.

They’re completely unaware of it.

They’ve heard the word and they eat there, but they don’t.

So it’s not even necessarily like people will be malicious, they just might not understand what it is that we’re doing here.

So just getting them on the same page.

And then also from a business perspective in terms of the release form / intake form, whatever you wanna call it.

I recently was chatting to a person who I’m going to be on that podcast and their form, their Zoom booking link for their podcast is like 12 questions.

That name, surname, industry.

What do you do?

Short bio.

Upload your picture of yourself.

Give me your cell phone number. 

[00:13:27] Hendrik Baird: Well, that’s really important because I mean, with this podcast that we did on content marketing, I now have to go back two months after the fact and like, please send me a nice high quality image of yourself.

And then they send me this terrible little, like, I can’t use that.

You know?

So that, that’s also very valuable information you’re sharing as you get that information before the time.

We didn’t do this for Dan, I mean, or any of our guests.

Now we’re going to have to reach out, go back to them.

Well, there’s a good, good reason to go back to them and continue the relationship, but it’s something we could have done right at the beginning.

[00:13:59] Ethan Baird: Another separate note on guests, is being selective with the guests, and I think the pre-chat, can help weed out some potential guests that you might not actually really want to record.

Everybody that we have on this podcast, we love chatting to them.

We have a very good reason to put them on.

Nobody that we recorded for this specific podcast was excluded.

We were all happy with all of them.

So just to set that up.

However, they’re have been times specifically of the content marketing podcast and things when I was midway through this chat and I’m like, On the LinkedIn description, this made sense.

But now halfway through this conversation, I’m like, this has actually got nothing to do with anything that we are doing.

[00:14:41] Hendrik Baird: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

[00:14:42] Ethan Baird: Or this person is just very dry. 

[00:14:45] Hendrik Baird: Mm. 

[00:14:45] Ethan Baird: And honestly, I don’t how I’m gonna make compelling content out of this. 

[00:14:49] Hendrik Baird: Mm. 

[00:14:49] Ethan Baird: So there’s also something to be said about having a strategy and we start to figure this out to actually make sure that this is a quality guest.

Before you sit in that recording with them and create all these expectations that we’re definitely going to publish this episode, cuz you might not really want to.

[00:15:06] Hendrik Baird: Yeah, no, that’s true. I mean, they were one or two guests on my Hypnosis Works podcast that should not have been published, but I was desperate for content and they said, well, I’m make edit it as best as I can to make you sound as. But it wasn’t really compelling content. 

[00:15:21] Ethan Baird: And, and you can’t now, after interviewing the person, go say, sorry, I’m not gonna publish it, becuase you’re boring.

Like, I’m sorry, you just can’t because that looks terrible.

You decided to interview me.

Now you’re telling me I’m not good enough.

Like, how bad does that make you look as a business owner slash podcaster?

So just be careful.

Have a strategy when it comes to guests.

Make sure that you know, Who this person is, what they’re talking about, what you’re gonna talk about, and make sure that you have some kind of selection process so that you really have quality content that you can be proud of, and that you don’t just have to publish once on LinkedIn and never talk about again.

[00:15:55] Hendrik Baird: Yeah.

[00:15:55] Christine Campbell Rapin: It also helps them understand that this has a purpose and a point, and I think sometimes that’s where you know, a lot of podcast hosts, get it wrong.

They’re like, and I just need anybody on my platform, and there’s a scramble for guests and, and you know, then it meanders and there’s no purpose.

So we have a very clear purpose with every episode, and when I have the pre-call, it’s us discovering together what’s the best angle.

And so when people, you know, come to me originally and say, you know, I wanna talk seo, I’m like, what about it?

What’s your angle?

What are you specifically trying to address? W

here do you think the elephant is?

Because it can’t just be at the surface level.

And why do I know that so clearly?

Because the reason you’re not seeing client growth is that you’re at that top level.

Well, that’s not what your client is.

It’s not useful knowledge.

It’s like wallpaper.

Well, anybody, you sound like everybody else.

The reason I’m gonna listen to this episode in terms of when I’m pre-leasing the episode in terms of, in the case of the video, like I announce, we’re gonna be having the episode and what is scheduled, and I have this scheduled out typically six to eight weeks out.

That’s the recording schedule I record and I always have this very clear plan, but what happens is I said, here’s why you wanna listen.

Here’s the value right out of the gate.

This is when you wanna listen to, and then of course, that same content is, is already out in the market in a video.

By the time we release the audio, similar content goes into show notes.

Sometimes more goes into the show notes and audio, because I have more space to do that.

But I’m always clear as this is the why you want, this is why you care.

We know what we’re gonna be talking about before we get there. 

And I know where the value is for the audience, and I keep, as a host, my goal is to keep the conversation on track, to get that value out into the audience.

I am Christine Campbell Rappin and I am a business mentor.

My podcast is called Amplify Your Marketing Message, 

[00:17:46] Hendrik Baird: And then also how do you use your guests to distribute your, your content once you’ve published it.

I think that’s something we need to talk about that, you know, some of these people have influential-spheres of influence.

What do we call them?

You know, they have friends and people in high places, and I know when I was on a podcast, I was very eager to share it. 

[00:18:08] Ethan Baird: Yeah. 

[00:18:08] Hendrik Baird: How do you tap into other people’s audiences?

[00:18:12] Ethan Baird: Having that intake form and strategy and pre-chat all will result in a podcast guest who knows exactly what to do when the podcast releases. 

[00:18:22] Hendrik Baird: But, but I think that’s something you’ve gotta prescribe also 

[00:18:24] Ethan Baird: Yes. 

[00:18:24] Hendrik Baird: To, to a degree and tell ’em, look, this is what I want you to do. 

[00:18:27] Ethan Baird: Make it easy for them. 

[00:18:28] Hendrik Baird: Yeah. 

[00:18:28] Ethan Baird: But think about it as you as a business owner now have to write up your whole blog post because you are a podcast.

You’re never gonna do that.

No.

Give them a bit of a, a write up to use for their post.

Give them a graphic, say social media, and wxactly.

Make it as easy as possible for them to share this thing so that they can get value and you can get value so that you don’t. Hope and pray that they’re going to do it.

[00:18:48] Hendrik Baird: So I was in a podcast once and I asked the lady to please share the link with me when she published it, which she never did.

I waited and waited and waited.

Then eventually I had to go Google it and find it wherever it was.

And then share it, which was frustrating.

Like it’s like a common courtesy.

I spent an hour with you, you can at least just send me the link and tell me it’s up and running so that I can share.

Cause I want to share it. 

[00:19:10] Ethan Baird: Yeah. 

[00:19:10] Hendrik Baird: So that two-way communication I think is important as well.

So there’s a to-do list you need to write yourself.

[00:19:16] Ethan Baird: And then we have to write for ourselves with our Future podcast episodes.

[00:19:19] Hendrik Baird: With this podcast. Yeah. 

[00:19:22] Ethan Baird: So what is our list?

We need to create an intake form.

Intake form for sure. 

[00:19:27] Hendrik Baird: Look, we’ve got an intake form.

We just don’t use it. 

[00:19:29] Ethan Baird: I know that the one that I recently filled in was linked to their booking link.

Like when you go to click on the calendar, there was like six questions.

I don’t know if we can implement that on ours, but we can Google it.

[00:19:39] Hendrik Baird: No, we can do that on our booking link. Yeah.

I like the Google form.

Because in there you can also go like, these are the terms and conditions.

Click if you accept it. 

[00:19:49] Ethan Baird: Yeah. 

[00:19:50] Hendrik Baird: You know, don’t share, don’t you know, don’t copy, whatever.

I sort of like that.

You can, you can easily incorporate that and you can upload photos and cv’s and all that sort of stuff there as well.

I would probably use that as an intake form. 

[00:20:03] Ethan Baird: So yeah.

So we we’re gonna build an intake form for our new podcast. 

[00:20:05] Hendrik Baird: No, let’s say we’re gonna improve our current intake form. 

[00:20:07] Ethan Baird: We’re going to use and improve our current intake form.

And that’s just standard.

And then part of the flow will include a pre-chat. 

[00:20:16] Hendrik Baird: A pre-chat, yes.

[00:20:17] Ethan Baird: Which is on a different day than that. 

[00:20:18] Hendrik Baird: But then also we need to have a short email sequence to those people, because we need to add those people to our CRM, because they potential contacts for the future. 

[00:20:28] Ethan Baird: So on the intake form, we need to get permission from them. 

[00:20:30] Hendrik Baird: To, yes to, because also it’s got a, a reminder, here’s the questions I have any queries, you know, and thank you for the interview and those sort of emails that you don’t want to physically do, but you can automate to some degree.

[00:20:43] Ethan Baird: We might be able to like embed this on our site and have our mail a light link up to it.

We’re gonna have to sit and really make this as easy, because my only fear, is that we overcomplicate it and then it’s like they get halfway through and then they close it and like nevermind. Yeah.

So we’ve gotta make it as simple as possible while making sure that they get everything.

[00:21:00] Hendrik Baird: Yeah. 

[00:21:00] Ethan Baird: And then we need to get permission for them to get onto our CRM and on our mailing list. 

So we can continue to market to these people. 

[00:21:06] Hendrik Baird: And then once we publish their episode, what do we give them then?

Do we send them a little media kit?

You know, something that goes like, here’s the link, here’s an article you can publish.

Here are three social media posts, blah, blah, blah, to make it easy for them as we said earlier.

[00:21:23] Ethan Baird: Here’s your Google Drive link with everything you need.

You can just copy and paste and download and post your heart’s content.

You don’t even have to think about it. 

[00:21:30] Hendrik Baird: Yeah. Yeah, that sounds great. 

[00:21:32] Ethan Baird: Love it. Okay, so…

[00:21:34] Hendrik Baird: So if you want to do this, well, first of all, yeah, so I dunno, get the book.

[00:21:39] Ethan Baird: So as you can see, part of what we are doing here is trying to practice what we preach.

We truly believe that these are strategies that are useful and they’ll work for you.

We have examples from podcasters who have done it and it’s working for them.

And a lot of what we have been talking about is in our book, which you can find on Baird.Media.

[00:21:58] Hendrik Baird: There we go. 

[00:21:58] Ethan Baird: Baird.Media links in the description as always. And then you can also sign up for our six week mentorship program.

This is a program where we literally go week by week giving you homework, making you read the book, and actually work with your podcast.

We don’t do big groups at all for this, for the specifically, for the mentoring program.

What we do is we will work with just you and your team and get your podcast out and running.

By the end of it, you will have episode one.

Produced and ready to publish, and you’ll have a season plan.

You’ll have episode descriptions, you’ll have everything you need to know to get going.

We’ve helped our clients figure out technical issues.

How do their microphones not work?

We’ve helped them figure out what microphone to buy.

All of those kinds of questions we can help answer for your very specific needs. 

[00:22:39] Hendrik Baird: So just go to our website.

Everything is there, including a ton of content, and it’s called Baird.Media.